Russia-Ukraine war and related tensions Megathread

[OSR stands with Israel]

Yall don't have Woodbury on mute? Wildin

I know, I have no sympathy for anyone who still engages with all his leading questions. The people that are owning SirWoodbury with facts and logic, or whatever it is they think they're doing, are a million times more obnoxious than SirWoodbury himself could ever hope to be.

This is in general how I feel about discourse in these kinds of threads and it frustrates me to no end that so many hot-button-issue threads get derailed by one or two obnoxious trolls posting provocative, edgy, stupid crap.  It's not the stupid crap itself that derails the thread, it's the six dozen white knights who are all chomping at the bit to be the one who dunks on Fuzzy the hardest, or finally makes OSR see the light, or receives an apology and mea culpa from SirWoodbury, or whatever.  It's just never gonna happen!  But we get pages and pages of people responding to the trolls, which diverts the thread into a rabbit hole of whatever hill the troll chose to die on.

I am 100% pro Ukraine so why did you bring me up in this thread

[OSR stands with Israel]

Could Ukraine realistically take back Crimea

[OSR stands with Israel]

Could Ukraine realistically take back Crimea

Realistic, as in militarily realistic?

Maybe, though fairly difficult.

Realistic, as in Putin won't use tactical nukes?

Very unlikely. Losing Crimea would guarantee the end of Putin's regime. Losing Kherson, Kharkov oblast etc. does not.

Coupled with the fact that most Crimean residents (even pre-2014) are ethnically Russian, and in favor of being part of the RF ever since Euromaidan, I don't see how it would be worth it.

Some Americans here mentioning they are just pro-RU Ukrainian separatists makes no sense if one is familiar with how ethnic identities work in some parts of the World. A Russian born in Ukraine is Russian. A Croat born in Bosnia is still Croat. Nationality and ethnicity are different in these parts compared to the US.

It pains me to say this, but conceding/recognizing Crimea as Russian territory in exchange for the return of all other Crimean land and all of their many thousands of kidnapped citizens might be a way to achieve peace once the Ukraine has beaten Russia out of the other occupied portions of the country. It's enough to save Putin enough face to declare the victory with their concession on Ukraine and not suffer a coup. Not that I don't wish to see him rotting in hell, I just wish to see Ukraine unconquered and at peace.

Btw my guess is Ukraine would accept this as well but it has to be a compromise Russia comes up with , not something Ukraine themselves would offer upfront as doing so would make the actual  deal worse.

[OSR stands with Israel]

“Putin would start nuclear armageddon over Crimea” and “ Putin is a rational enough actor that Ukraine can sign a peace deal with him and not immediately be invaded afterwards” is a bit of a contradicted line of thinking no?

I mean many armistices have been signed with non rational actors including the one that ended the Korean War.

Also the reason you cant be invaded afterwards is in this sense , the Ukrainians would be continued to be armed to the teeth to stop another potential invasion.

[OSR stands with Israel]

https://twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1581198080191664128?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7...
The comments are brutal. More money taken away from American taxpayers for a hopeless foreign war they have no investment in.

Okay traitor.

This isn’t helpful in any way. It almost reminds me of how people were post-9/11 if you questioned Bush’s actions at all. For months we have been sending money to Ukraine and I haven’t seen any results whatsoever. There is still a war and I see no signs Ukraine is even close to winning. Do we just keep sending them a blank check indefinitely? And would Ukraine support us if we truly needed them? Where is the cutoff here and why?

To be clear I am not defending Russia’s actions in any way, that would be ridiculous. But we need to move toward peace in some way; this isn’t sustainable in the long term and could drag out for years.

even if it drags out for years, that means the russkies are fighting over there and not at America's shores.

that's y its important to help the forces of global democracy over there fight Axis of Evil regimes before they get out of control and can do even more damage and threaten the entire world rather than just their region.

If the west had toppled Hitler in 1933 many millions would have survived who instead died due to appeasement that allowed the forces of evil time to gain strength.

I understand the logic here but Putin is hardly Adolf Hitler. Russia is a weak second-world country whose military has proven to be ill-equipped and unprepared for combat. it is hardly the type of army that Germany had in the 40s, and I doubt he could even defeat Poland at this point.

NATO is the red line. If he goes after any NATO country then I fully support military involvement, though Poland by itself would likely be able to take them for that matter. I feel for Ukraine, I truly do, but I don’t think Putin poses much of a threat for anyone else other than them.

Imagine thinking that, a, Putin isn't utterly morally reprehensible and bloody as Hitler simply because he hasn't literally reopened book involved, b, that fundamental American strategic interests are not at play here despite Ukraine not - at least yet - being a NATO member, or c, that despite its corruption and difficulties it is fundamentally on the side of liberal democracy under attack from a bunch of mass raping, child torturing, ethnic kidnapping/cleansing purveyors of mass War atrocities.

I mean would you say Suddam was as evil as Hitler then or Stalin was as evil as Hitler . Like you can say someone is very evil without saying they are as evil as Hitler as pretty much no one in modern human history has been as evil as Hitler .

[OSR stands with Israel]

https://twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1581198080191664128?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7...
The comments are brutal. More money taken away from American taxpayers for a hopeless foreign war they have no investment in.

Okay traitor.

This isn’t helpful in any way. It almost reminds me of how people were post-9/11 if you questioned Bush’s actions at all. For months we have been sending money to Ukraine and I haven’t seen any results whatsoever. There is still a war and I see no signs Ukraine is even close to winning. Do we just keep sending them a blank check indefinitely? And would Ukraine support us if we truly needed them? Where is the cutoff here and why?

To be clear I am not defending Russia’s actions in any way, that would be ridiculous. But we need to move toward peace in some way; this isn’t sustainable in the long term and could drag out for years.

even if it drags out for years, that means the russkies are fighting over there and not at America's shores.

that's y its important to help the forces of global democracy over there fight Axis of Evil regimes before they get out of control and can do even more damage and threaten the entire world rather than just their region.

If the west had toppled Hitler in 1933 many millions would have survived who instead died due to appeasement that allowed the forces of evil time to gain strength.

I understand the logic here but Putin is hardly Adolf Hitler. Russia is a weak second-world country whose military has proven to be ill-equipped and unprepared for combat. it is hardly the type of army that Germany had in the 40s, and I doubt he could even defeat Poland at this point.

NATO is the red line. If he goes after any NATO country then I fully support military involvement, though Poland by itself would likely be able to take them for that matter. I feel for Ukraine, I truly do, but I don’t think Putin poses much of a threat for anyone else other than them.

Imagine thinking that, a, Putin isn't utterly morally reprehensible and bloody as Hitler simply because he hasn't literally reopened book involved, b, that fundamental American strategic interests are not at play here despite Ukraine not - at least yet - being a NATO member, or c, that despite its corruption and difficulties it is fundamentally on the side of liberal democracy under attack from a bunch of mass raping, child torturing, ethnic kidnapping/cleansing purveyors of mass War atrocities.

I mean would you say Suddam was as evil as Hitler then or Stalin was as evil as Hitler . Like you can say someone is very evil without saying they are as evil as Hitler as pretty much no one in modern human history has been as evil as Hitler .

I agree with your premise that once one gets to that level of genocidal evil it all Blends together. I suppose I have nothing but contempt for the knee jerk morally blind anti-interventionists who repeatedly oppose supporting Ukraine under the theory that Putin isn't as bad as Hitler so whatever's.

Oh I 100% agree this is moronic as one of the lessons we should have learned from WW2 is we never should have let Hitler become Hitler to begin with. The British/French could have stopped Hitler before 1940 and it is one of humanity's greatest tragedies that he was not stopped before then.



 

[OSR stands with Israel]

https://twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1581198080191664128?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7...
The comments are brutal. More money taken away from American taxpayers for a hopeless foreign war they have no investment in.

Okay traitor.

This isn’t helpful in any way. It almost reminds me of how people were post-9/11 if you questioned Bush’s actions at all. For months we have been sending money to Ukraine and I haven’t seen any results whatsoever. There is still a war and I see no signs Ukraine is even close to winning. Do we just keep sending them a blank check indefinitely? And would Ukraine support us if we truly needed them? Where is the cutoff here and why?

To be clear I am not defending Russia’s actions in any way, that would be ridiculous. But we need to move toward peace in some way; this isn’t sustainable in the long term and could drag out for years.

even if it drags out for years, that means the russkies are fighting over there and not at America's shores.

that's y its important to help the forces of global democracy over there fight Axis of Evil regimes before they get out of control and can do even more damage and threaten the entire world rather than just their region.

If the west had toppled Hitler in 1933 many millions would have survived who instead died due to appeasement that allowed the forces of evil time to gain strength.

I understand the logic here but Putin is hardly Adolf Hitler. Russia is a weak second-world country whose military has proven to be ill-equipped and unprepared for combat. it is hardly the type of army that Germany had in the 40s, and I doubt he could even defeat Poland at this point.

NATO is the red line. If he goes after any NATO country then I fully support military involvement, though Poland by itself would likely be able to take them for that matter. I feel for Ukraine, I truly do, but I don’t think Putin poses much of a threat for anyone else other than them.

Imagine thinking that, a, Putin isn't utterly morally reprehensible and bloody as Hitler simply because he hasn't literally reopened book involved, b, that fundamental American strategic interests are not at play here despite Ukraine not - at least yet - being a NATO member, or c, that despite its corruption and difficulties it is fundamentally on the side of liberal democracy under attack from a bunch of mass raping, child torturing, ethnic kidnapping/cleansing purveyors of mass War atrocities.

My remark about Hitler wasn’t because I was comparing their mortality. Putin is certainly a bloodthirsty dictator in the same ideological realm as Hitler. Instead I was comparing their militaries. Russia’s can’t even seem to conquer Ukraine while Germany’s in the 1930s-1940s nearly took over all of Europe.

The reason for this is cause the UK/French really didnt do anything to try to stop Hitler until it was too late .

[OSR stands with Israel]

https://twitter.com/Tendar/status/1591308229333905409?s=20&t=N1Zr-ddZi9FXEu3...

[OSR stands with Israel]

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2022-12-02/ukraine-bans-religious-organizations-links-russia?_amp=true

This imo is a complete overreach and should not happen . If any figure in the church is collaborating with Russia then arrest them , but don’t shut down churches as that’s a violation of religious liberty .

 

[OSR stands with Israel]

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2022-12-02/ukraine-bans-religious-organizations-links-russia?_amp=true

This imo is a complete overreach and should not happen . If any figure in the church is collaborating with Russia then arrest them , but don’t shut down churches as that’s a violation of religious liberty .

 

The problem is that the Moscow Patriarchate is an extension of the Russian state; it really isn't a religious organization but a tool for Moscow to assert control over countries on its periphery. Orthodox services certainly aren't banned, just those taking orders from Kirill and thus, Putin.

Id just arrest those pastors then not shut down the churches. Shutting houses of worship doesnt seem like a good precedent to create so you can effectively do this by arresting the pastors who work with the Russian state for treason.

[OSR stands with Israel]

That's a supermajority for Right Amount or Not Enough, fwiw.

Yes, but it is now dead even on whether does the USA have a responsibility to protect Ukraine from Russia

Sure but that question is vague as what does the word responsibility mean. If it means sending aid then the question about whether we are doing enough to halt the invasion is a good metric to look at, but if it means sending US troops to Ukraine then that number would be way lower

[OSR stands with Israel]

Badass. 
https://twitter.com/BenSledge/status/1606214573253607424

That is awesome

[OSR stands with Israel]

This thread has turned into a 2023 Military Spec Buyers Guide.

The ironic thing is I don't even like war or weapons. Every shred of interest I have here is ultimately tied to how all of this can help less Ukrainians die and more quickly expel the hordes of genocidal scumbags. I suspect once that infestation is dealt with I'll go back to loathing the military industrial complex.

The times have changed... quickly. This week I had a chat with a fellow German Green Party member where he confused the Marder with the Gepard and chided himself for that mistake and for incorrectly believing for a minute that the Marder had already send to Ukraine months ago. Weirdly ironic discussion given the historical roots of the Greens and all.

But... we also have the situation, apparently amplified by the post-Ukraine world, where large parts of the Green Party base including surrounding activist NGOs and/or adjacent media publications have come around in support of the CETA agreement after having "traditionally" opposed it in large-scale protests only five years ago or so. But since February last year there had been a growing "f**k it, better to have Canadian capitalists than Russian/Chinese imperialists" mood, I guess. I'm almost expecting some buyers' remorse to emerge with regards to the end of TTIP too... which would only be a logical conclusion given that Trump had killed TTIP and Trump and his followers are often such Putin fanboys, and while the Greens around here used to hate TTIP back in the days they hate Trump and Putin now even more.

I started to ramble a bit here, but that's something I have been musing about recently.

I mentioned this before but there is this weird ideological disconnect going on in Western leftism both in the US and in Europe where a lot of leftist leadership is shaky at best and in some cases outright against Ukraine (see the infamous Ukraine letter here or comments by people like Noam Chomsky) vs young leftist on the ground who are firmly in the “arm Ukraine until Russia has been kicked out” camp and it has been making for some strange political bedfellows

Well, I think in Germany it's more a split of Greens/young SPD vs. Left Party/old SPD.

Yeah that generational divide is something I was trying to get at too. I think it’s because younger generations in politics today came post cold war and thus hold no nostalgia for Russia/USSR

In the US it’s the opposite with older Americans far more in favor of arming ukraine than younger ones

[OSR stands with Israel]

This thread has turned into a 2023 Military Spec Buyers Guide.

The ironic thing is I don't even like war or weapons. Every shred of interest I have here is ultimately tied to how all of this can help less Ukrainians die and more quickly expel the hordes of genocidal scumbags. I suspect once that infestation is dealt with I'll go back to loathing the military industrial complex.

The times have changed... quickly. This week I had a chat with a fellow German Green Party member where he confused the Marder with the Gepard and chided himself for that mistake and for incorrectly believing for a minute that the Marder had already send to Ukraine months ago. Weirdly ironic discussion given the historical roots of the Greens and all.

But... we also have the situation, apparently amplified by the post-Ukraine world, where large parts of the Green Party base including surrounding activist NGOs and/or adjacent media publications have come around in support of the CETA agreement after having "traditionally" opposed it in large-scale protests only five years ago or so. But since February last year there had been a growing "f**k it, better to have Canadian capitalists than Russian/Chinese imperialists" mood, I guess. I'm almost expecting some buyers' remorse to emerge with regards to the end of TTIP too... which would only be a logical conclusion given that Trump had killed TTIP and Trump and his followers are often such Putin fanboys, and while the Greens around here used to hate TTIP back in the days they hate Trump and Putin now even more.

I started to ramble a bit here, but that's something I have been musing about recently.

I mentioned this before but there is this weird ideological disconnect going on in Western leftism both in the US and in Europe where a lot of leftist leadership is shaky at best and in some cases outright against Ukraine (see the infamous Ukraine letter here or comments by people like Noam Chomsky) vs young leftist on the ground who are firmly in the “arm Ukraine until Russia has been kicked out” camp and it has been making for some strange political bedfellows

Well, I think in Germany it's more a split of Greens/young SPD vs. Left Party/old SPD.

Yeah that generational divide is something I was trying to get at too. I think it’s because younger generations in politics today came post cold war and thus hold no nostalgia for Russia/USSR

In the US it’s the opposite with older Americans far more in favor of arming ukraine than younger ones

I disagree the biggest anti-Ukraine people need to be Tucker Carlson brain melted zombies who don’t tend to be in the “young camp”

https://news.gallup.com/poll/401168/americans-back-ukrainian-goal-reclaiming-territory.aspx

65+ is at 75% and 18-29 is at 63%


Keep in mind that even if older Tucker viewers are the most pro Russia people , they dont  make up anywhere near the population as most people think . Most voters from both sides probably don’t even follow the news

[OSR stands with Israel]

Putin absolutely must be assassinated.

Where is the CIA when you need them???

What makes you think his replacement would be any better

[OSR stands with Israel]

Putin absolutely must be assassinated.

Where is the CIA when you need them???

What makes you think his replacement would be any better

Putin absolutely must be assassinated.

Where is the CIA when you need them???

What makes you think his replacement would be any better

Yeah - it's not just Putin alone. It's a murderous Kremlin/Wagner mafia. Basically the worst people in control of Russia, at the worst time possible. Russian people are not bad per se, but right now it looks like only criminals, fascists and mentally-ill are leading this country.

Russia is now officially a fascist state. It's not "just" run by fascists, it is literally no different in any meaningful way from Nazi Germany anymore. This evil regime must be exterminated, wiped from the face of the Earth, immediately, at any and all costs. And I do not buy that killing the fascist in chief, Putin himself, would not be effective. All this nonsense about "WhAT abOUt his rePLACemEnt??" is garbage coming from people who are too cowardly to admit what needs to be done. Nazi Germany literally collapsed within days of Adolf Hitler's death. Beheading the snake is an EXTREMELY effective anti-fascist strategy, and I see no reason to believe this would be any different. Putin's cult of personality in Russia at this point rivals only Stalin's. To see their false god's head on a spike would send massive shockwaves throughout that s--thole country that might give many of those Orcs pause and make them stop and wonder if maybe dying for this dead fool isn't worth it. Kill him. Kill him now.

And I say this as a staunch opponent of the death penalty. I make an exception for genocidal fascist dictators.

Its the other way around, Hitler committed suicide because it was clear the Nazis were about to be totally defeated by the allies and the Nazi regime was days away from completely collapsing. The Nazis did not fall in WW2 because of a Coup d'etat, but rather cause we were able to successfully take Germany from them.

So unless you think we should invade Russia, this analogy makes no sense what so ever. Btw invading Russia is not realistic whatsoever given their nuclear arsenal so the best case we can hope for is Russia defeated like Iraq was in 1991.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Well yes, but Hitler only survived a well planned assassination attempt in 1944 through dumb luck.

Btw we wouldnt have accepted a conditional surrender from Germany even if Hitler was removed from power. By 1944 we had made it more than clear we would accept nothing other than an unconditional surrender from the Germans and that meant the war wouldnt end until Berlin fell.

Btw it was 100% the right move by the Allies as well given the entire German state at that point had to be deconstructed and then rebuilt. 

[OSR stands with Israel]

Now that Ukraine is actually on the brink of winning the war,

This is a very dangerous assumption to make. If you take Ukraine's war aims as the complete liberation of national territory, that's unfortunately still very far off, even with this new round of aid. Of course, the hope is that Russia folds before we get to that point, but given past behavior I'm not comfortable betting on it.

The sad truth is that we're probably looking for at least another year of mostly-attritional warfare, albeit one marked by occasional Ukrainian gains like those we've seen around Kharkiv and in Kherson. The goal remains holding on, and being in this for the long haul will make the difference.

Not if we give Ukraine the weapons with which to overcome that Western Front-style stalemate, which we are beginning to do.  We can end this war this year militarily if we really want to.   

From my (admittedly limited) understanding, these are still a long ways away from the kind of aid that could achieve a front-wide breakthrough. Hell, in most respect we're still just helping Ukraine reach parity with Russia in terms of equipment.

I agree the US could single-handedly win this war for Ukraine in a matter of months if it really wanted to, but that would require a level of support that's probably at least one order of magnitude larger than the funds appropriated so far. And of course with the Putin stooges now running the asylum in the House, it's unclear if we'll get any more money for that. Frankly Biden could and should have done a lot more back when he had a friendly Congress, but at this point even that's beyond us. Either way, it's important to be realistic about what we're in for. I believe Ukraine can and must win, but it will not be quick or easy.

The Discharge Petition exists for a reason

[OSR stands with Israel]

The Discharge Petition exists for a reason

And when's the last time it's been used for a significant policy item under a Republican Congress?

Given military history, if this drags on for years and years and both sides are 100% committed, Russia would presumably win due to having 3X the population unless the advantage of the NATO weapons is truly the equivalent of guns vs. swords in earlier eras.  Thankfully, I don't think Russia is 100% committed to this while Ukraine probably is.

As far as I can see it, combat power in the long-term is basically a function of population*will to fight*resources. Obviously Russia has the higher population, but nowhere close to Ukraine in terms of that population's will to take part in the war effort. How the resources balance stacks up is entirely in the hands of NATO allies, and will probably be the decisive factor.

I mean past Republican Congresses were very pro interventionist when it comes to Foreign Policy so such an item would not have to be used to begin with. Also the discharge petition allows the GOP to run an end around the freedom caucus without risking another speakership election .

[OSR stands with Israel]

The Discharge Petition exists for a reason

And when's the last time it's been used for a significant policy item under a Republican Congress?

Given military history, if this drags on for years and years and both sides are 100% committed, Russia would presumably win due to having 3X the population unless the advantage of the NATO weapons is truly the equivalent of guns vs. swords in earlier eras.  Thankfully, I don't think Russia is 100% committed to this while Ukraine probably is.

As far as I can see it, combat power in the long-term is basically a function of population*will to fight*resources. Obviously Russia has the higher population, but nowhere close to Ukraine in terms of that population's will to take part in the war effort. How the resources balance stacks up is entirely in the hands of NATO allies, and will probably be the decisive factor.

I mean past Republican Congresses were very pro interventionist when it comes to Foreign Policy so such an item would not have to be used to begin with. Also the discharge petition allows the GOP to run an end around the freedom caucus without risking another speakership election .

Well, I hope you're right but that sure sounds like wishful thinking to me. The Republican establishment is cucked to the crazies, it has been for decades.

This is wrong on two fronts. One the 1994-2006 GOP house(especially 2000-2005)  was not cucked to Crazies at all lol, as it was completely run top-down with members rarely stepping out of line with what the party leadership wanted and party discipline was enforced through an iron fist by party leadership. It's why those Republican Congresses were extremely successful in passing an ambitious agenda unlike the GOP congresses since 2010.

Second even the 2010-2018 GOP house defied the tea party multiple times. Those times all had to do with where not taking action would have hurt the establishment's interests or something the establishment deeply cared about. See the 2011 and 2013 debt ceiling battles for example.


The foreign policy establishment deeply cares about this issue and also its in their interests that Ukraine wins so the GOP establishment will do a go around and Ukraine Funding will happen .

[OSR stands with Israel]

The really enlightened position is that the Great War wasn’t a world war. The real World War I was the Seven Years’ War.

War of the Spanish succession imo

You know, I've always wondered why wars like The Wars of Spanish Succession, the Seven Years War, and the Napoleonic Wars aren't considered "World Wars" since they involved all the major powers of the international system and had fighting on multiple continents. By that standard, we would be on like World War IX by now.

WW1 is really only called WW1 cause of it’s connection to WW2 , otherwise it would just be called The  Great War .

[OSR stands with Israel]

The really enlightened position is that the Great War wasn’t a world war. The real World War I was the Seven Years’ War.

War of the Spanish succession imo

You know, I've always wondered why wars like The Wars of Spanish Succession, the Seven Years War, and the Napoleonic Wars aren't considered "World Wars" since they involved all the major powers of the international system and had fighting on multiple continents. By that standard, we would be on like World War IX by now.

WW1 is really only called WW1 cause of it’s connection to WW2 , otherwise it would just be called The  Great War .

You didn’t address the question.

The answer really is that WW2 is really the only truly global war in history of that scale but because of the fact that it’s causes are related to how WW1 Ended(and it’s immediate aftermath ) it got named as WW2 rather than The World War .

[OSR stands with Israel]

Critical support to, uh, the Wagner Group at this time.

Ehhhhh Wagner is much worse than Putin

It would be much better if Putin had to use his military to defeat the Wagnar group than have them in Ukraine.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Lmao this shows how power can get over someone’s head. This millionaire mercenary believes that he can be the new Russian leader considering he’s “in charge” in the battleground.

People are being naive or blinded by their anti-Putin status quo if they think this guy ruling Russia is better for Ukraine or for the world. Keep the nuclear weapons away from the Wagner Group pls.

I don’t want him ruling Russia. Or Putin ruling Russia. What I want is chaos. Destruction of the Russian regime. Preferably in a game of thrones style free for all where Putin and all his bois end up offing eachother.

I guess you’ll have to move on to cheerleading for Xinnie the Pooh next

I am sorry but this is beyond Moronic given how many nuclear weapons Russia has . Do you want rogue extremist groups to suddenly get access to nuclear weapons because that would just be a disaster for the world .

[OSR stands with Israel]

Lmao this shows how power can get over someone’s head. This millionaire mercenary believes that he can be the new Russian leader considering he’s “in charge” in the battleground.

People are being naive or blinded by their anti-Putin status quo if they think this guy ruling Russia is better for Ukraine or for the world. Keep the nuclear weapons away from the Wagner Group pls.

I don’t want him ruling Russia. Or Putin ruling Russia. What I want is chaos. Destruction of the Russian regime. Preferably in a game of thrones style free for all where Putin and all his bois end up offing eachother.

I guess you’ll have to move on to cheerleading for Xinnie the Pooh next

I am sorry but this is beyond Moronic given how many nuclear weapons Russia has . Do you want rogue extremist groups to suddenly get access to nuclear weapons because that would just be a disaster for the world .

How is the Putin regime not a rogue extremist group lol

I mean look at the alternatives:

- Wagner Group

- Russian Hardliners that make Putin look sane

- Chechen Terrorists

- Other Russian Seperatists


Do you really want nukes to fall into the hands of one of these 4 groups