Spanish elections and politics III / Pedro Sánchez faces a new term as PM

[Zinneke]

Before engaging with Spanish politics, I highly recommend factoring in the shameless sectarianism, whataboutism and intellectual dishonesty under which, to one extent or the other, all sides operate and of which the above post is a prime example.

Sorry, no, there is a clear difference here, on both a moral and legal level. And I'm calling out your hypocrisy, as well as all the organisations you cite. Because apparently if right-wing parties run on a platform of wanting to imprison specific individuals, this does not merit joint statements from legal organisations (or to take another example, a member of the highest court in the country attending a political rally in Plaza Colon). But an amnesty law calling for an investigation into the practices of the Spanish judiciary in targeting Catalans who put papers in ballot boxes is "golpe de estado".

https://twitter.com/jurgenvontopfer/status/1723074373752389651

[Zinneke]

Before engaging with Spanish politics, I highly recommend factoring in the shameless sectarianism, whataboutism and intellectual dishonesty under which, to one extent or the other, all sides operate and of which the above post is a prime example.

Sorry, no, there is a clear difference here, on both a moral and legal level. And I'm calling out your hypocrisy, as well as all the organisations you cite. Because apparently if right-wing parties run on a platform of wanting to imprison specific individuals, this does not merit joint statements from legal organisations (or to take another example, a member of the highest court in the country attending a political rally in Plaza Colon). But an amnesty law calling for an investigation into the practices of the Spanish judiciary in targeting Catalans who put papers in ballot boxes is "golpe de estado".

https://twitter.com/jurgenvontopfer/status/1723074373752389651

You want to equate two different things, both of which you heavily misrepresent, because if you did not you might have to ask yourself the uncomfortable question of whether, perhaps, there is a non-nefarious reason why so many groups are raising their voice.

You believe that when Viktor Orbán or PiS interferes with the judiciary, it's wrong. When a left-of-centre government does it, it's right. When Donald Trump says the justice system unfairly targets him for political reasons, he's wrong. When Carles Puigdemont says it, he's right. When the British Tories complain about "lefty lawyers", they're wrong. When Podemos complains about "right-wing judges", they're right.

You don't judge actions by themselves, you judge them by your phillia or phobia towards those who perform them.

You've got me wrong based on amalgamation and jumping to bizarre conclusions based on me being nominally Left and critical of Orban, etc. for example on the subject of the Israel protests, I actually defended the idea that legislative chambers should have a level of oversight on the judiciary, I just believe the majorities should be strong. But in this case saying Sanchez wants to "Orbanise" Spain or do what Netenyahu was doing, is totally wrong and feeding the far right "golpistaaaa" rhetoric.

I am as big a critic of the judicialisation of politics in Britain or Israel, as well as politicisation of the judiciary in the US, as I am of the bias and lawfare methods used by judges and prosecutors in Spain by means of lawfare. My own country has a political class composed almost exclusively of lawyers who also act as jurists next to their political job, which I find contemptuous.

The difference is unlike far right arseholes in Britain I don't necessarily want judges to be "crushed" violently, just disbarred

you are just acting the moderate hero on the issue but the evidence is there that the Spanish judiciary is biased against Catalan nationalists...when the Catalans organise a referendum they attribute misuse of funds based on things like...one missed school day. Meanwhile Ayuso awards contracts to her brother and is given a slap on the wrist. Get real hombre.

[Zinneke]

You've got me wrong based on amalgamation and jumping to bizarre conclusions based on me being nominally Left and critical of Orban, etc. for example on the subject of the Israel protests, I actually defended the idea that legislative chambers should have a level of oversight on the judiciary, I just believe the majorities should be strong. But in this case saying Sanchez wants to "Orbanise" Spain or do what Netenyahu was doing, is totally wrong and feeding the far right "golpistaaaa" rhetoric.

I am as big a critic of the judicialisation of politics in Britain or Israel, as well as politicisation of the judiciary in the US, as I am of the bias and lawfare methods used by judges and prosecutors in Spain by means of lawfare. My own country has a political class composed almost exclusively of lawyers who also act as jurists next to their political job, which I find contemptuous.

The difference is unlike far right arseholes in Britain I don't necessarily want judges to be "crushed" violently, just disbarred

you are just acting the moderate hero on the issue but the evidence is there that the Spanish judiciary is biased against Catalan nationalists...when the Catalans organise a referendum they attribute misuse of funds based on things like...one missed school day. Meanwhile Ayuso awards contracts to her brother and is given a slap on the wrist. Get real hombre.

Thank you for clarifying your stance on liberal democracy and freedom of thought by coming out in favor of purging the court system on ideological grounds. And I am sure you posses a great knowledge of legal matters, perhaps even a law degree, which allows you to accurately and unbiasedly opine on the conduct of judges in a foreign country. It can hardly get more objective than this post.

I honestly don't care about the typical legalese argument. I do think democracy is being eroded from within liberal democratic institutions by judges and prosecutors (whether left or right) and I can list the issues with the Spanish judiciary once I get to my PC. But your r/iamverysmart and understand liberal democracy act isn't impressive. If you can't see how the Spanish legal system is fundamentally biased that's your problem.

eaving irony aside, you believe that there should be a “strong majority” for this so-called “judicial oversight” by the legislative branch, yet you support the pushing through of this system with a bare majority of less than 180 votes out of 350 in Spain.

The difference here is that Sanchez is not doing what Netenyahu is doing. Sanchez is not Orbanising Spain, as far as I can tell he is not amending the constitution either. Maybe you should join in the Cara al Sol chants on the street if you think this is anywhere near the kind of judiciary to legislative power grap you think it is. I'm sure you'll meet plenty of defenders of liberal democracy there.

Could you also elaborate in detail about why exactly you believe misuse of public funds is an unwarranted charge to make on Catalan nationalist politicians who organized the 2017 referendum?

It may not be unwarranted in Spanish law, but when Ayuso awards contracts to her brother for significant amounts but is a free woman while political leaders of a minority community are jailed for organising the activity of putting papers in boxes as part of the manifesto they were elected on, I think you have a sick judiciary yes.

[Zinneke]

https://twitter.com/PoderJudicialEs/status/1724057188556017807

It's fitting that on the day the US Supreme Court releases its own code of conduct the Spanish equivalent released its own assertions of its role, opening the door to a potential judicial coup. And millions of democrats are supposed to just ignore that democracy in the "liberal" West will be safeguarded by a bunch of arrogant judges, be it left or right, who put themselves above the general interest. It's almost as if the reason why populists like Junts Per Cash emerge is because of this guilded cage culture that renders parliamentary democracy useless and a foregone conclusion, MPs reduced to being merely the customer service of the angrier, smellier and elderly boomer reactionaries. No space for any political economy debate, the limits of the state, no more philosophers, economists, sociologists, working class people...just lawyers and and their mediocre marketing people (Including Señor Sanchez) to sell the legalese horse dung to the masses.

[Zinneke]

I normally have a lot of time for Anne Appelbaum - but she ought to know better in this case. The alternative to an amnesty deal that keeps Sanchez in power, is likely a rabidly rightwing government where the fascist, pro-Putin Vox party has a lot of power.

Applebaum's hot takes on Western European politics often are just copy pasted from her husband's EPP network in Brussels. Incidentally Sikorski is on the payroll of numerous foreign governments and consultancies...

[Zinneke]

What is "the Russian role in the Catalan separatist process" exactly?

Some of the people around Puigdemont's front for a  [EDIT : it was Puigdemont's Parliamentary assistant]met with Russian officials allegedly. But then they also probably met with officials with Tuvalu. Or Swaziland. Or Nicaragua.

I thought Rufian of all people put it best when he said the real problem was that the Puigdemont/CSO wing of the separatist effort took themselves for James Bond just for having such a meeting.

In the end Applebaum is kind of what the caricature tankies paint of the neo-McCarthyite warmonger. Behind every social ébullition, there's some shady Russian figure in her eyes. But her husband being a paid asset for the UAE is not a problem.