Israel-Gaza war

[jojoju1998]

Egypt should annex Gaza and Jordan should annex the West Bank. That's my proposal for peace.

[jojoju1998]

I have yet to hear anyone propose a serious solution to stop Hamas attacks into Palestine.

As I've said before, it's extremely easy to sit in the peanut gallery and say "oh how dare you, oh how inhumane" to any proposed solution.  But the status quo is appallingly inhumane.  Unless you have an actual proposal for how to fix the status quo, you are advocating for its continuation.  So you are the one advocating for something appallingly inhumane.

The really sickening truth is that many people in this thread are OK with the status quo because they see it as acceptable that these Jews are getting killed.  They think they deserve it, or "it's the natural consequence of decolonization", or "this is what fighting your oppressors looks like", or whatever other idiotic excuse for being OK with genocide you can concoct.  Think I'm exaggerating?  Look at the warning posted at the top of the thread.  I've seen the deleted posts.  I've also seen many of the posts that haven't yet been deleted.

But there are also a lot of useful idiots who are willing to go along with the status quo simply because they're too cowardly to actually propose a real, practical, workable solution to the problem.  Should the Jews continue to suffer and die because of your cowardice?

Yes, I'd rather see a whole lot of people have to move across the border than see a whole lot of people get raped, murdered and killed.  If you're a decent person, you would as well.  So if you think this is a false choice, tell me about it.  If you think there's an alternative solution, tell me about it.  Because this attack is a paradigm shift.  Previously it was plausible to think Israel could continue the status quo of just keeping Hamas bottled up and crushed under foot, using the Iron Dome to shoot down all their rockets, using the IDF to beat back all their attacks, and no lives would be lost.  But that's clearly no longer true.  Hamas must go.  One way or another, Hamas must go.

Have Egypt annex Gaza, And Jordan annex the West Bank. Or use it as a threat against Hamas.


Hamas is tied to the Muslim Brotherhood, which the curreny Egyptian Government hates. They will certainly stamp out any Hamas influence of course.

[jojoju1998]

There is no civilian administration that is possible in Gaza that is friendly to Israel. Establishing rigged elections and hoping westerners buy it isn't gonna work.

Would a Fatah/PLO regime not be more peaceful with Israel than a Hamas regime? I don't what the outcome of a fair election would be, perhaps they might just elect Hamas so Israel could install Fatah undemocratically and it could govern in tandem with the West Bank.

Fatah/PLO explicitly funds lone wolf terrorism via the pay to slay policy so you wouldn't want to back them.

Best head of an interim civilian administration who I can think of would be Mansour Abbas.

He might be considered to be too Westernized though by a majority of Palestinians.


And perhaps too Israeli.

[jojoju1998]

Two thoughts:

1. Wow this thread sucks.
2. Wow you guys SUCK.

If there's a thread that makes a solid argument for me leaving this forum because of insane ass bullsh**t, this one is it.  I've heard enough genocide fantasies on both sides to make me understand why some folks want to live in Mars.

-The Man

The irony is that Hamas played into Israel's hand. They have undercut the Palestinian cause for the next 20-30 years, perhaps even longer.

[jojoju1998]

There will be a refugee crisis because of this war, like there is with EVERY war. I imagine the Biden administration would be very welcoming of refugees (like most Democrats are), but it will probably be more of a mixed bag in Europe. In either case, it is essential that governments do not repeat the mistake they made in WWII of denying refugees entering their countries.

I can assure you that no one in Europe wants even one of these murderous and mentally deranged "Palestinians". The entire Gaza strips needs thirty years of deprogramming to come to its senses.

Polling indicates that about 75% of Palestinians support Israel's right to exist. I am pretty sure only a fraction of the remaining 25% support Hamas' actions a few days ago. Plus, there will also be a lot of Israeli refugees, who clearly do not support Hamas' actions.

I doubt there will be a major national security risk in accepting refugees as there is probably very little overlap between those who wants to flee violence (refugees) and those who want to engage in violence (Hamas).

Why are there no protests against Hamas in the West Bank then and only celebrations?

Because the country is literally oppressed by Israel. Kinda makes sense to celebrate the attacks - based on the sh**t they have to endure - even during peaceful times, sh**t you don't care about, in part because you don't live there.

Great inversion of the truth here! Actuality, oppression comes from threats to annihilate a people, and not from being richer than another in an abstract way. Thanks, sweetie.

I always will point out this irony though; even if Palestine become independent, their pariah status in the eyes of the West, will mean that they will become dependent on countries like Russia, China, Iran,


which undercuts the whole independence argument.

[jojoju1998]

Again--what does my condemnation of Hamas do for Israelis, Palestinians, or anyone else? They're reactionary Islamists whose presence at the forefront of the Palestinian movement is both shameful and a direct consequence of Shamir's own propping-up of them against a PLO which has since recognized Israel and gotten nothing for it.

Twofold answer here:

1. You have been more than happy to offer strong condemnations of both the Israeli state (justifiable) and Israeli citizens (rather suspect amidst a genuinely horrific terror attack). “What does my condemnation of Hamas do for Israelis and Palestinians” is a complete non sequitur - we both understand that many Israelis are deeply racist against Palestinians, but the way you frame it here takes you genuinely close to apologizing for the massacres of attempting to redirect the conversation.

2. There is definitely blame for the Israeli Right and Far Right here, particularly in propping up Hamas to support their political goals. However, it should be noted that Hamas is not merely a product of outside circumstances and reflects a worrying trend of extreme political actors seizing power for their own personal gain at the expense of the Palestinian Authority.

Israel is the ultimate aggressor and the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict (as opposed to the broader Arab-Israeli conflict, which essentially ended in 1973) is rooted in the occupation. The fact that Hamas was able to seize power against a weak Palestinian Authority was possible because the Palestinian Authority is not allowed to be an actual state with enforcement powers!

No? Both Intifadas were explicitly declared by the Palestinians. You can consider them justified attacks -- I think this is totally ridiculous and that even stuff like WW2 had more shades of grey, but whatever -- but it certainly wasn't Israel who launched them.

The problem with a "Palestinian Authority as an actual state with enforcement powers" is the genocidal agenda, on which Fatah is waffly but not, historically, totally opposed. The solution here, again, is a Palestinian movement that learns to explicitly see itself as a tool of the Israeli state.


That's a total non starter and you know it. The Palestinians would never go for something that denies their existence, and would lead to more extremism down the long run.


Then again, there isn't other options too. We don't have any viable solutions.

[jojoju1998]

Again--what does my condemnation of Hamas do for Israelis, Palestinians, or anyone else? They're reactionary Islamists whose presence at the forefront of the Palestinian movement is both shameful and a direct consequence of Shamir's own propping-up of them against a PLO which has since recognized Israel and gotten nothing for it.

Twofold answer here:

1. You have been more than happy to offer strong condemnations of both the Israeli state (justifiable) and Israeli citizens (rather suspect amidst a genuinely horrific terror attack). “What does my condemnation of Hamas do for Israelis and Palestinians” is a complete non sequitur - we both understand that many Israelis are deeply racist against Palestinians, but the way you frame it here takes you genuinely close to apologizing for the massacres of attempting to redirect the conversation.

2. There is definitely blame for the Israeli Right and Far Right here, particularly in propping up Hamas to support their political goals. However, it should be noted that Hamas is not merely a product of outside circumstances and reflects a worrying trend of extreme political actors seizing power for their own personal gain at the expense of the Palestinian Authority.

Israel is the ultimate aggressor and the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict (as opposed to the broader Arab-Israeli conflict, which essentially ended in 1973) is rooted in the occupation. The fact that Hamas was able to seize power against a weak Palestinian Authority was possible because the Palestinian Authority is not allowed to be an actual state with enforcement powers!

No? Both Intifadas were explicitly declared by the Palestinians. You can consider them justified attacks -- I think this is totally ridiculous and that even stuff like WW2 had more shades of grey, but whatever -- but it certainly wasn't Israel who launched them.

The problem with a "Palestinian Authority as an actual state with enforcement powers" is the genocidal agenda, on which Fatah is waffly but not, historically, totally opposed. The solution here, again, is a Palestinian movement that learns to explicitly see itself as a tool of the Israeli state.


That's a total non starter and you know it. The Palestinians would never go for something that denies their existence, and would lead to more extremism down the long run.


Then again, there isn't other options too. We don't have any viable solutions.

It should not deny their existence -- that would be a horrible crime, actually -- but the analogy I am drawing is to white South Africans. There needs to be an acknowledgement within the community that their movement has been a criminal one for decades and that their enemies have been on the side of good for that entire period, and ideally this would include a coalition government along the lines of 1994-1999 and some episode like the merger of the National Party into the ANC. At that point there can be discussions regarding autonomy or independence (at least prior to this conflict, Gaza as an independent city-state was quite reasonable); similarly in South Africa I think independence for western Cape would probably be good if it can be accomplished on friendly terms.

For people to accept being subject to a Truth and Reconciliation process, they actually do need to have some sliver of power. But they have to actually and sincerely support the new order and it is one in which it is clear that their movement 'lost' and where they don't mourn it.

But it's not as simple as that though. The South African situation doesn't have the 2,000 year history of religous, sectional, conflict.


The Holy Land which three major religions see as crucial to their religous faith.

[jojoju1998]

https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1712317048976490520?s=20

Screw people like Lindsey Graham and every evangelical who uses this conflict to LARP.

The irony is that; Palestinian Christians have been caught in the crossfire.

Most Palestinian Christians in the last 5 decades have fled, moving to places like the US.

But some remain.

https://www.pillarcatholic.com/p/palestine-christians-have-no-margin

They're not exactly happy with Israel's actions in the region, and they also have no reason to trust Hamas, since Hamas is a islamic fundamentalist organization.

[jojoju1998]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Fauxmoi/comments/178nf31/the_state_of_israel_is_beefing_with_gigi_hadid/

[jojoju1998]

Biden hasn't been ( that chummy) with Nethenyahu for a while. This isn't new, dating back to the Obama days.

[jojoju1998]

Pope denounces terrorist attacks on Catholics

https://twitter.com/CatholicSat/status/1736360497887187318

American Christians may be the only example in the world of a religious group that often verges on actively encouraging the destruction of their coreligionists in another part of the world.

Evangelicals don't see Catholics as real Christians though......


Palestinian Christians tend to be latin rite catholics, Maronites, or Eastern Orthodox.

[jojoju1998]

The UN Security Council has passed a resolution calling for an immediate and permanent cease-fire. Something I was told was impossible on this Forum. It feels like a seminal moment.

It's non-binding and both sides have immediately made clear they have no intention of abiding by it, so in the end I guess it was.

"Israel is not going to do it" does not mean it is impossible. The UN Security Council apparently agrees with me and disagrees with you and the other Biden supporters here.

Hamas isn't going to do it either.

In all seriousness, there are apparently two tiers of Security Council resolutions - ones that come with threat of sanction and ones that don't. The US would only agree to pass the latter, while Russia at the last second tried to convert it to the former.

But you're never going to completely crush Hamas. That seems to be the problem. There's an analogy I like to use, imagine all the ants, crawling in your home, and the only tool you have is a baseball bat, and in your efforts to kill the ants, you demolish your home, but the ants are still going to come.

That's where Israel is right now.

[jojoju1998]

Interesting, the Scholz gov is extremely pro Israel.

https://twitter.com/mattlieb/status/1783205161160302900?t=9fzaOHZ1vCdCjBAT20WW6A...

Not interesting ? Not surprising ? One could argue that Germany is overcorrecting for what happened almost a century ago...