Legitimize the Voting Act of 2010 (Law'd)

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

It can easily be identified through certain websites. It's going to be a pain to check all the voters, but it's probably the only way to make sure we don't have multiple sock accounts voting.

The cell phone issue may be dicy. I and many others vote using cell phone when we're away on weekends, so perhaps we need to expand the absentee voting system or make the voting period longer.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

I'm not too crazy about prohibiting cell phone use to vote, to be honest. A lot of people take "weekend getaways" and probably depend on their phone to stay up to date on Atlasia, as well as voting.

Which is why I suggested we also either open up the absentee ballot to more people, or we extend voting hours. I'm not a fan of banning cell phone voting either, but we it can be a loophole people who post from proxies only can exploit.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

I'm not a fan of the cell phone provision either, but obviously I support this bill overall. And actually I liked Franzl's idea of requiring people to register to vote with a legitimate IP.

Meaning you register to vote with a legit IP and then are allowed to use proxies from there on out? I can't support anything like that.

A smarter way to handle that is to expand and lengthen the absentee voting process so people have a chance to vote, not the other way around.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

I'm not a fan of the cell phone provision either, but obviously I support this bill overall. And actually I liked Franzl's idea of requiring people to register to vote with a legitimate IP.

Meaning you register to vote with a legit IP and then are allowed to use proxies from there on out? I can't support anything like that.

A smarter way to handle that is to expand and lengthen the absentee voting process so people have a chance to vote, not the other way around.

I think he means that he is of the opinion that all posters must register and vote from legitimate IP addresses, something I wholeheartedly agree with.

Oh I gotcha, meaning you need a legit IP when you register and then when you vote. If that's the case, we should amend as follows:

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[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

The cell phone thing could be resolved by allowing it only if the person registers under a legitimate IP and regularly posts under that or the cell phone and never uses proxies.

I really don't know - perhaps someone with more knowledge in this field can comment. I know that some phones, apparently, post using proxies and others do not - like my iPhone is not a registered proxy but shows my location in Florida. It seems like a complicated subject.

Perhaps the absentee booth can be opened for a week or so before the elections so that people will have the opportunity to vote. Surely everyone will be able to have access to a computer that votes one time in a two week period.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

How hard would it be for the moderators to just look over the voting booth after each election and make sure there is only one vote per IP address?

What do you mean? There can be one proxy IP address that posters can be using. I'm not following you...

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

How hard would it be for the moderators to just look over the voting booth after each election and make sure there is only one vote per IP address?

What do you mean? There can be one proxy IP address that posters can be using. I'm not following you...

Maybe I'm off here, I'm not very knowledgable on computers and IP address's, but could the moderators check through the voters in an election and just see if two of them have the same IP address?

Yes, but if it's a PROXY IP address, it can change to hide the true identity of the poster. Proxies have multiple IP addresses, not just one. One can easily vote with just 1 IP, but if, say, Hamilton, changed proxy IP addresses over and over, each of his socks could vote and they would have one IP address to themselves. What we want to do is ban them so you'll have to post from a legitimate, legal IP address that is not affiliated with a proxy, thus making is nearly impossible for one to with their socks unless they physically go elsewhere. Most proxy IPs show up as proxies when entered into a database. Unfortunately, mods will have to go through this process with each voter, but it needs to be done.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

Yeah. I was thinking the same thing. Looks like we need to amend this puppy further.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

Wait, would we need to nominate someone and hope that Dave allows them to moderate the Atlasia board or simply nominate one of the moderators like BK or MJ? If it's the latter, I don't see a point in the President nominating them since they are already given the powers they need by the higher authority.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

I see what you are saying now.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

The mod issue is dicy, as there are only a few people we could, in theory, nominate. Also, would we want to give all the power to just one mod, or have several of them look over the voters and verify they voted from a legit IP? I'm thinking the latter.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

Why don't you just have it so you can ask any Mod? We're currently creating an IP list anyways so it would make this whole thing much easier with a private list already in place that just needs to be verified.

Your papers, please!  If the forum moderators are tracking IP addresses for no good reason, don't know if I want to post here any more.  Innocent posters who want to keep their anonymity intact neither deserve nor warrant having their IP addresses tracked for no legitimate reason.  I also wonder whether maintaining such a list violates the terms of service of this website.

This bill is unworkable.  Proxy is ill defined.  What is or isn't a "legitimate IP address" is going to be left to unelected moderators, and extremely subject to abuse for political reasons.  DSL providers (i.e. the telephone companies) don't provide static IP addresses to their customers.  Is someone's vote illegitimate because the DSL provider just happens to assign a poster an IP address that's on somebody's spam list because someone else spammed from that IP address?  That was the crux of the charge claiming Libertas was some sort of IP transgressor - and it's bizarre.

Banning voting or registering by cell phone is idiotic and serves absolutely no purpose.  Some cell phone web browsers legitimately route traffic through their servers in order to speed up the web browsing process.   There's nothing illegitimate about using one of those cell phone browsers to post on this forum or to vote, regardless of whether you're away from your computer.

By requiring IP checks, this bill treats us all voters as guilty until proven innocent - which is extremely abusive.

cinyc,

I think we defined a legitimate IP address - one that is not routed through a proxy - a no ISP assigns their users a IP that is a proxy. If they do, please provide evidence to support that. The cell phone issue is one that is still a concern even to me, but perhaps we can allow cell phone voting if the IP is a from a legitimate proxy like Opera, AT&T or Verizon.

Otherwise, what do you propose? We do nothing? We just found out that six voters in the NE Senate election were posting either from proxies or the same IP address as another poster. This does cast a shadow over the legitimacy of the results, and it will only get worse if we allow it to go unchecked. The game becomes a game of how many socks you can sign up and vote rather than anything else. If it does come to that, people will quit playing.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

Your papers, please!  If the forum moderators are tracking IP addresses for no good reason, don't know if I want to post here any more.  Innocent posters who want to keep their anonymity intact neither deserve nor warrant having their IP addresses tracked for no legitimate reason.  I also wonder whether maintaining such a list violates the terms of service of this website.

The internet gives you an illusion of privacy.  In reality it's as if you are walking around with your home address tattooed on your forehead.

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It's exactly like asking a real voter for his name and address before they vote.  It has nothing to do with guilt or innocence.

Exactly. What is going on right now would be equivalent to registering multiple times at different locations to vote and then voting there with no proof of Social Security, citizenship, or anything else. We simply must pass something. We can't sit back and let things continue as they are. There's no way it can be unconstitutional to require someone to prove they are a legitimate human being.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

I'm not a fan of banning cell phone voting either, but if it's allowed, them it can be the new way to game the system, since one could justify voters having the same IP address because they were using a cell phone to vote.

If we do ban cell phone voting, we will also extend the absentee voting period so everyone would have ample time to vote.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

I'm not a fan of banning cell phone voting either, but if it's allowed, them it can be the new way to game the system, since one could justify voters having the same IP address because they were using a cell phone to vote.

If we do ban cell phone voting, we will also extend the absentee voting period so everyone would have ample time to vote.

But isn't the major problem those who chronically post from a proxy or other illegitimate IP/ISP sources and are subsequently discovered to be socks? Is there truly much danger to voting integrity if the first two paragraphs of this bill are passed without the third? It seems that the chronic proxy posters are the ones most likely to be socks and illegitimate voters rather than a reputable identifiable poster who votes by cell phone when they're out of town for the weekend.

I readily admit to not being the most tech savvy guy around so feel free to edumacaze me here.

Yes, of course, to your first point. The ambiguity that comes into place is, whether the catalysts behind the socks have cell phones and, if they do, are they the kind that you can vote on. If they are, let me pose this scenario to you.

Hamilton has 3 sock accounts, all of which he posts via proxies. We pass this bill which bans them from being able to vote on the forum. He also has a cell phone that allows him to access the internet. He votes using his cell phone, which routes through an Opera, Verizon or any other providers proxy. All three of his socks have voted through the cell phone's proxy, and all can claim they are different people because all phones use the same IP address, depending on the tower in which they are located (I believe).

Now, we can pass this bill without banning cell phones, and if we come to that problem later on, where these questionable posters all vote via a proxy on a cell tower, then we can examine and pass further legislation, or we can go ahead and pass it banning it. If we want to strike the third paragraph, then I'm in favor of such a move and we can see what happens when people like segway and other Hamilton socks vote, and if they all end up voting from a cell phone proxy, we can go from there.

Anyway, I urge all senators to move on this bill so we can at least restore some legitimacy to the voting around here. Elections are coming, and it would be a travesty if a Senator got elected on the heels of 6-8 sock accounts that all voted from proxies.

Additionally, if we do chose to ban cell phones, we should probably extend the absentee voting or regular voting period. I'm not sure if that requires a constitutional amendment.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

We could strike the first point in the bill and use this bill as a trial run. If we do see susepcted socks vote from cell phones, and they have never voted before using them, then we can begin to work on an alternative.

I will admit that if we do decide to ban cell phones, this bill will need to be amended a great deal more to extend the voting period and could force a constitutional amendment to pass. Are we taking on too much and one time? Perhaps we can keep it simple for now. But when I see 6 sock accounts voted in the Northeast Senate election, which was decided by a few votes, I want to do something.

BADGER: See my previous post for my response to your post.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

Aye

And yes, I meant the third. My apologies.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

Aye