Our Vaginas, Their Choice

[President Tyrion]

Either you've missed my point or you're intentionally ignoring my point.  I have NEVER done what you did, and I will NEVER do it.  You abused the system because of a fight in Atlasia.  Abuses of the system are stupid in general, but they're doubly stupid when done to try to further a fight in a game.

I'm sure everyone could have handled this better. I have tons of respect for everyone here, so let's calm it down, and not hurl insults. We all know you're both doing it. Here's the matter at hand. You bring up "abuses of the system." Let's focus on the greatest abuse of the system here, and that's ZuWo not signing the bill into law in order to prevent the people from exercising their democratic right to a referendum. That's the real abuse of the system, and that's the issue here.

I love you guys, and this bickering needs to stop, and this REAL abuse needs to be at the forefront of all discussions on the topic moving forward.

[President Tyrion]

Regardless of your opinion on this measure, does anyone really want the female infanticide mores of India and China to enter this country?  Shouldn't we be doing more than merely condemning it?  

The issue with that line of reasoning is that the issue does not exist within Atlasia (America), even within immigrant populations. If you believe it is the case, then prove it. It is an issue that is relegated to other countries, so why do we need to pass a law for it here? I could support a law (but not this particular one because it wouldn't even be effective) targeting this problem if I was a legislator in India or China. But this is Atlasia, and we should pass laws that are relevant here.

And, to add on to sbane's point, it's incredibly difficult to prove in any context.

We can dance around the issue all we want, but there's no doubt that the two different manners of thinking are such:

1) A woman may have control over her body unless there is an extremely good reason otherwise; and

2) A woman's body may be controlled by the state unless there is an extremely good reason for freedom.

Women don't need to prove their freedom. It is a right. This law in the Mideast, however, balances heavily to the latter situation.

[President Tyrion]

Either you've missed my point or you're intentionally ignoring my point.  I have NEVER done what you did, and I will NEVER do it.  You abused the system because of a fight in Atlasia.  Abuses of the system are stupid in general, but they're doubly stupid when done to try to further a fight in a game.

I'm sure everyone could have handled this better. I have tons of respect for everyone here, so let's calm it down, and not hurl insults. We all know you're both doing it. Here's the matter at hand. You bring up "abuses of the system." Let's focus on the greatest abuse of the system here, and that's ZuWo not signing the bill into law in order to prevent the people from exercising their democratic right to a referendum. That's the real abuse of the system, and that's the issue here.

I love you guys, and this bickering needs to stop, and this REAL abuse needs to be at the forefront of all discussions on the topic moving forward.

I'm not hurling insults.  But what Adam did pisses me off because it's one line that I don't think should be crossed, and when people repeatedly cross it (and it's been done before), it ruins the game.  He knows what I mean, and if you want more details, you can ask him.  I'm not going to post publicly what he did.

Er, well I'm sure people would take offense to being called a kindergartener. I guess if that's not an insult, you have a really high opinion of little kids

Not knowing what AG did, I'm just going to keep harping on what ZuWo did, and that's the real abuse of power here.

[President Tyrion]

Either you've missed my point or you're intentionally ignoring my point.  I have NEVER done what you did, and I will NEVER do it.  You abused the system because of a fight in Atlasia.  Abuses of the system are stupid in general, but they're doubly stupid when done to try to further a fight in a game.

I'm sure everyone could have handled this better. I have tons of respect for everyone here, so let's calm it down, and not hurl insults. We all know you're both doing it. Here's the matter at hand. You bring up "abuses of the system." Let's focus on the greatest abuse of the system here, and that's ZuWo not signing the bill into law in order to prevent the people from exercising their democratic right to a referendum. That's the real abuse of the system, and that's the issue here.

I love you guys, and this bickering needs to stop, and this REAL abuse needs to be at the forefront of all discussions on the topic moving forward.

I'm not hurling insults.  But what Adam did pisses me off because it's one line that I don't think should be crossed, and when people repeatedly cross it (and it's been done before), it ruins the game.  He knows what I mean, and if you want more details, you can ask him.  I'm not going to post publicly what he did.

Er, well I'm sure people would take offense to being called a kindergartener. I guess if that's not an insult, you have a really high opinion of little kids

Not knowing what AG did, I'm just going to keep harping on what ZuWo did, and that's the real abuse of power here.

I didn't call him a kindergartner.  I said it's the kind of stuff that kindergartners do... because... well it is.

Well, the statement is....provocative. How about that, instead? Y'all are poking each other with sticks when you know the bears are already angry

But I realize statements like that sound remarkably holier-than-thou, so I'll get off my high horse. I just hate that the facts are being lost in all this.

[President Tyrion]

Regardless of your opinion on this measure, does anyone really want the female infanticide mores of India and China to enter this country?  Shouldn't we be doing more than merely condemning it?  

The issue with that line of reasoning is that the issue does not exist within Atlasia (America), even within immigrant populations. If you believe it is the case, then prove it. It is an issue that is relegated to other countries, so why do we need to pass a law for it here? I could support a law (but not this particular one because it wouldn't even be effective) targeting this problem if I was a legislator in India or China. But this is Atlasia, and we should pass laws that are relevant here.

And, to add on to sbane's point, it's incredibly difficult to prove in any context.

We can dance around the issue all we want, but there's no doubt that the two different manners of thinking are such:

1) A woman may have control over her body unless there is an extremely good reason otherwise; and

2) A woman's body may be controlled by the state unless there is an extremely good reason for freedom.

Women don't need to prove their freedom. It is a right. This law in the Mideast, however, balances heavily to the latter situation.

Oh dear lord, are we really getting into this unwinnable debate again? I would be absolutely shocked if you could find ANY pro-life Atlasians whose reason for not supporting abortion is "to control a woman's body". The abortion issue always comes down to what point each individual thinks human life begins. Every point that can be chosen has its own moral and scientific problems, and each person will evaluate these differently. To believe that this is not THE issue of the abortion debate and that it really has to do with freedoms or something is ridiculous.

Dereich, I really do respect and understand the points on both sides of the legalization of abortion debate, I really do. The issue here is not the legalization of abortion; it's about whether or not a woman has to ask permission to get one.

I'm not trying to paint with a broad brush here. I'm not saying that all, or even more than 10% of pro-lifers fall into the more "We must control women" category, but I will say that the law as it stands SOUNDS very controlling.

That, to me, is the point here. I respect your position, Emperor, I really do. But it's not just about the legalization of abortion in this case, at least not to me.

[President Tyrion]

Tyrion, don't you think it is unfair to target the entire Federalist party for the acts of a few? I don't even see many people defending what Zuwo did, and yet just go to the OP and see what a disgusting ad AG made. You don't see the problem with that?

Oh, I see the problem with it, absolutely, and I do think attacking the entire party for the actions of a few is unfair.

It does run both ways though. I see Labor getting thrown under the bus here, a little bit, but I wouldn't say it's fair to target the whole party either. And yes, to make a definitive statement, all Federalists are not in one boat, and all Federalists do not deserve the blame for ZuWo's poor decision in this case (which, if I may, can still be fixed rather easily).

So, yes, gentleman's agreement. Let's talk about the issues, and keep it at that. That's what I've been trying to do the whole time, and I hope you can appreciate that

[President Tyrion]

So, yes, gentleman's agreement. Let's talk about the issues, and keep it at that. That's what I've been trying to do the whole time, and I hope you can appreciate that

I think the real issue is why is a person with the name "Adam" using the phrase "Our Vaginas"?

That confused me a bit as well. Adam is just very protective of the other sex; can't really blame him. I think women and their womanly parts rule! But yeah, I'm not going to use a collective adjective for vaginas any time soon.

[President Tyrion]

So, yes, gentleman's agreement. Let's talk about the issues, and keep it at that. That's what I've been trying to do the whole time, and I hope you can appreciate that

I think the real issue is why is a person with the name "Adam" using the phrase "Our Vaginas"?

That confused me a bit as well. Adam is just very protective of the other sex; can't really blame him. I think women and their womanly parts rule! But yeah, I'm not going to use a collective adjective for vaginas any time soon.

Or is he protective of the other sex because he thinks they're his property?  It seems to me like Mr. Griffin thinks he owns these women and their body parts.

Ooooooooooh man, don't go there, Mr. Man.

[President Tyrion]

A governor is exploiting a legal loophole to remain unaccountable to the people of his region. And y'all talk about tone and negativity...

Have a look at the Mideast Constitution before drawing far-fetched conclusions. It isn't possible to hold a referendum on the bill, but there are other means available to have a public vote.

And those means seemingly only remain available because there isn't a loophole to exploit to prevent their use.

You seem to have no remorse over this, and that's incredibly frustrating.