Paul Ryan is not "blue-collar." Neither is Joe Biden.

[J. J.]

Very few people are "blue collar" today.  Construction workers, assembly line workers, miners, farm workers, drivers, and in the public sector, trash collectors and road crews.

In theory, a mechanic that owns his own shop is a small business owner.  A clerk in government office is white collar.

[J. J.]

Very few people are "blue collar" today.  Construction workers, assembly line workers, miners, farm workers, drivers, and in the public sector, trash collectors and road crews.

Classic J. J.

hahahahaha!

You are looking at this from a UK perspective, unfortunately.

Even as far back as the early 1980's, in America, "working class" was someone who "gets their hands dirty," from working, but excluding an engineer.  Salesmen, for example, were never working class. 

[J. J.]

Oh, and salesmen were never regarded as 'working class' here either. Back in the day, when these things were clear.

And that despite "the lowest class of commercial travellers" (a period phrase, of course, and not a small group) being working class in virtually all respects including background... and of course, the actually lowest class of commercial travellers - not the people meant by the phrase were one step above tramps (and usually, a few years before becoming tramps unless they died sooner.)

J.J. : I think what Al meant was "talk about missing the point".

"Blue collar," in the US, always refers to someone that was in the industrial field, or doing some kind of manual work.  If you were male, and wore a tie to work, you were not blue collar.  There are dwindling number of blue collar workers, though one of my grandfathers was and the other hovered around the Biden level.  None of their children were.

The Bidens were lower middle to middle class, but not "blue collar."  The Ryans were middle to upper middle class.

[J. J.]

My God, he just doesn't... a force of nature is J. J. A force of nature.

You seem to be the only one that disagrees with the premise of what is "blue collar" so far.

As for background, that matters much less in America than it did in the UK.  Al, I really don't think you understand the difference.

[J. J.]

Paul Ryan and Rick Santorum are blue-collar in a world where the term is racist code for Non-Egghead White, and nowhere else. Though Rick Santorum's parents would qualify anywhere IIRC.
Joe Biden's case is somewhat more complex, but he's certainly not of bona fide working class roots either.

Santorum's grandparents were blue-collar. His parents weren't.

And LOL at J. J.'s posts in this thread.

Well, here is the actual definition of "blue collar" :  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue-collar_worker

Why don't you give yours? 

[J. J.]

You seem to be the only one that disagrees with the premise of what is "blue collar" so far.

As for background, that matters much less in America than it did in the UK.  Al, I really don't think you understand the difference.

Do you even read other people's posts? I mean, do you ever give them more than an extremely cursory glance?

Anyways, I asked a question earlier and it was left unanswered for some reason. So I'll put it to you again: Could you tell me roughly how many Americans can be described as being one of the following groups you listed: construction workers, assembly line workers, miners, farm workers, drivers, trash collectors and road crews? No games, please, and even less sophistry. Just a straight answer to a straight question.

There is, and I shall warn you of this in advance, a follow up question already prepared. One that directly references your posts in this thread.

Looking at the descriptions, about 10-11% of the work force is "blue collar."  http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm#00-0000

Now, before I answer your follow, what is your definition of "blue collar."

[J. J.]

Has either man said they were? Aopeal yes, partaking in parts of that culture yes. Originating from said background- no.

What "culture"? To claim there is one universal "blue-collar culture" is really....insulting, frankly.

LOL.  Rosanne Arnold and John Goodman made a fortune off of it.  As did Norman Lear and Carrol O'Conner!  So did Billy Joel with "Allentown."

Whole cities have the reputation for being blue collar!  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21581863/ns/travel-destination_travel/t/philadelphias-tough-image-hard-shake/#.UEwmElHLkis

As someone who did grow up in an area that was proudly blue collar, until the steel market collapsed, I can only say that you are very far out of touch.

[J. J.]

Has either man said they were? Aopeal yes, partaking in parts of that culture yes. Originating from said background- no.

What "culture"? To claim there is one universal "blue-collar culture" is really....insulting, frankly.

LOL.  Rosanne Arnold and John Goodman made a fortune off of it.  As did Norman Lear and Carrol O'Conner!  So did Billy Joel with "Allentown."

Whole cities have the reputation for being blue collar!  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21581863/ns/travel-destination_travel/t/philadelphias-tough-image-hard-shake/#.UEwmElHLkis

As someone who did grow up in an area that was proudly blue collar, until the steel market collapsed, I can only say that you are very far out of touch.

He didn't say that there are no blue-collar cultures, he said that there's no Blue-Collar Culture.

Those are references to "blue collar" culture.

[J. J.]

Looking at the descriptions, about 10-11% of the work force is "blue collar."  http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm#00-0000

Accepting your definition for the moment, then a tenth of the workforce are 'blue collar'. Now then,  the comment of yours that I laughed at earlier (and which thus sparked this entire discussion, to the extent that it can be termed as such) was:

Very few people are "blue collar" today.

Would you say that 10% of the workforce (your figure*) can be described in such terms? I notice from the source that you took your figure from that lawyers make up 0.4% of the workforce. That is a much smaller figure than 10% and yet I note a positive surfeit of lawyers in American public life. Curious.

*Though it's ridiculously low.

Well, if you want to talk about lawyers, start another thread.

There was a time, within my lifetime, when that number was over 20%.

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It's just an informal term for a manual worker.
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That is not the definition in the US.  People in food preparation are generally "manual workers."  They are not "blue collar," by most definitions, and they make up about 8% of the work force. 

There actually was the term "pink collar" that described these positions, but that overlapped with professional positions usually associated with women, like teaching or nursing.

[J. J.]

Well, if you want to talk about lawyers, start another thread.

Missing the point again, I see.

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hahahaha

You really are an amazing creature sometimes, you know.

Yes, I've actually been paying attention for the last three decades.

Here is a chart of employment in the US by sector, 1959-2010:



Sorry Al, you are quite quaint, with your longings for cloth caps and that Michael Foot will become PM, but that has not been the reality in the US since I graduated from high school.  (And Tony Blair realized that in the 1990's.)

Manufacturing (which was mostly, but not completely, blue collar) was at about 20% of GDP when I graduated from high school.  In 2010 it was about 11% of GDP (again mostly, but not completely, blue collar).

90% of the workforce is not blue collar, and over the last 45 years the number of blue collar workers has declined, perhaps by more than half.  Things change, Al.  Just in case you didn't realize it, the Beatles are no longer together, Wilson is no longer in power, and you don't have to lobby for sanctions against South Africa anymore (and I actually did divest).

Obviously the tendency was always to use the term especially freely as a shorthand for people working in heavy industry, but I'm fairly sure it was also pretty frequently used for people working as tradesmen in other fields and so on. And from then you can probably extend matters to skilled manual workers (as that term was once defined) in general... except for the fact (oh dear) that a labourer is pretty clearly 'blue collar'. Not only are labourers on building sides labeled as 'blue collar' as a matter of routine, no workplace engaged in heavy industry back in the day could have done without at least a gang or two of labourers. And that's where attempts at a precise definition begin to fall apart; as is always the way with informal terms.

Anyway, I await smug sophistry with comparatively little interest.

Actually AL, those were never blue collar jobs, though I don't deny that some are hard.  And those jobs existed when the label "blue collar" was used.  They were never blue collar jobs.

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And was doubtless used by about three jargon loving 'political scientists' and about a dozen hack journalists writing puff pieces for features sections for all of several years.

Actually used to describe jobs traditionally held by women, which included nurses, teachers, and some government workers, none of whom are described today as "blue collar."  Actually first used by liberals like Pete Hamill, and picked up by the feminist movement.

You cannot confuse "service Jobs" with "blue collar jobs."

LOL at Al, 3,000 miles and 45 years away.

[J. J.]

Before going any further I would like to point out that you are embarrassing yourself. I know that this has become 'your thing', so to speak, but I think it's important (if only for my conscience) to make the situation absolutely clear.

As noted, I indicated the definition in the US of "blue collar."  I thing it only fair to point out that you don't get to define the term for the United States.

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I repeat: you are embarrassing yourself.
[/quote]

I did, but you apparently didn't bother to read the definition of the term "blue collar."

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I am using a comparison to say "very few," which even generously is 10-11%. When I graduated from high school, it was about 20%.  When I entered grade school, and first heard the term, it was about 25%.

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Waiters/waitresses, cooks, teachers, nurses, nurses aides, clerks in stores, secretaries, since the context was that these were classified as "pink collar."  Laborers, in the US usually refers to a non skilled worker in some sort of heavy work.   

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So still about three people, all told.

No, at one point it was used as a gender divide.  There are 1,500,000 citations on Google, so it seems to be more than three people.  Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it isn't widely used (and now arguably is outdated).

LOL, Al, you really out of touch.

[J. J.]

Has either man said they were? Aopeal yes, partaking in parts of that culture yes. Originating from said background- no.

I thought Ryan was hostile to unions? Of course (in reality) we're back to the increasing use of the term as a code for something quite different.

I have not seen a particularly hostile stance.  I would not classify any of the other three people on the ticket as being "blue collar," though George Romney perhaps had that background, but well before Mitt was born.  Obama's maternal grandmother did work in a bomber plant during WWII, and also worked as a waitress.

None of these guys are "blue collar."

[J. J.]

As noted, I indicated the definition in the US of "blue collar."  I thing it only fair to point out that you don't get to define the term for the United States.

This is really, really bizarre. I'm not even really attempting to 'define' anything: I'm certainly not playing word games.

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I'm sorry but that will not do. You wrote a long post arrogantly accusing me of not being aware of the existence of deindustrialisation and other changes to the labour market over the past thirty-odd years, in response to a post of mine mentioning these very issues. You don't see that this makes you look ridiculous?

Al, blue collar workers were mostly, not exclusively, in the industrial sector.  You apparently don't understand that.  As noted, the industrial sector had declined, rather dramatically.  You questioned earlier why the figure seemed to be so low.  It is because the sector that primarily employed blue collar workers has shrink.

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Blue collar has perhaps a more defined meaning that you think, in the US.  Marco Rubio's family, for example, were obviously not wealthy, obviously had had to work hard in jobs with few, if any, chances for advancement.  They were not, however, blue collar.

The concept of a "proper job," as I think you mean it, is relatively alien to the US.  It might be referred to as a job with shifts, or a "9 to 5 job," but that refers to white collar and pink collar jobs, just as well.

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Many of the American people use that "jargon."  It was originally used to describe jobs traditionally held by women, but also included professional positions. 

[J. J.]

Al, blue collar workers were mostly, not exclusively, in the industrial sector.  You apparently don't understand that.  As noted, the industrial sector had declined, rather dramatically.  You questioned earlier why the figure seemed to be so low.  It is because the sector that primarily employed blue collar workers has shrink.

Perhaps you haven't noticed, but I've been using the word 'deindustrialisation' rather a lot in this thread. What do you think 'deindustrialisation' means, exactly?

I would also like to remind you, again, of the post that triggered all of this:

Very few people are "blue collar" today.  Construction workers, assembly line workers, miners, farm workers, drivers, and in the public sector, trash collectors and road crews.

I know that it isn't nice to rub someone's face in their own embarrassment, but sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind.

What do you thing assembly line workers do?  Those people are industrial workers,.  That includes workers such as car workers and steel manufacturers. 

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And, once again, the point whistles several feet over your head. I can't be bothered to make it again.
[/quote]

Once again, you post gibberish.  Maids and bartenders are not "blue collar" workers.

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I'm pretty sure that hardly anyone uses that particular piece of jargon. I'm even surer than most of the people that do use it do not have such jobs themselves.
[/quote]

Al, as pointed out, the are 1,500,000 references to it on Google.  The problem is that the definition is jobs traditionally held by women, which includes what are now fairly high paying professional jobs.  Again, the fact you don't like it, doesn't make it any less certain.

[J. J.]

Oh look another thread where JJ is so needlessly pedantic to the point that he looks like a fool.

Well, we Al insisting that blue collar means something it doesn't.  He seems to have the mindset of the Labour Party in the mid 1980's (which they abandoned in the mid 1990's). 

The irony is that I can remember, basically as an adult, when probably more that 1 in 5 workers were blue collar and, as a child, when it was more than 1 in 4.  I actually can remember people in manufacturing working in shifts. 

[J. J.]

What do you thing assembly line workers do?  Those people are industrial workers,.  That includes workers such as car workers and steel manufacturers.

Were you dropped on the head as a child?

The whole issue here, o.k, is that you claimed that 'very few' people have blue collar jobs in the U.S., before immediately listing occupations that employ millions of people in that very same country.

Christ.

Yes, Al, especially in comparison the numbers that there were, as you have noted.

Al, in the US, currently, we have 142,101,000 employed.  Yes, a few million are very few.

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I never wrote anything about maids or bartenders. This was what I wrote:
[/quote]

[/quote]

Well, when I posted that Rubio's parents, who were a maid and a bartender, were not blue collar, you took issue with it.  You didn't say, "Oh, I agree."

...and all that I'm trying to argue (though Lord knows why, because I certainly don't) is that 'blue collar worker' is an informal term for 'manual worker' rather than an absolutely precise term with a single very clear meaning.

"Manual worker," in the US, would not be limited to "blue collar worker," and the connotation would exclude numerous "blue collar workers."  The term "proper job" has no real meaning in the US.

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Al, as I've pointed out, the term has less meaning today, with a number of "pink collar" positions, nurses, teachers, some government workers, having become "professional positions," but, as noted these positions, along with things like maids, cooks, store clerks, cashiers, secretaries,  were considered "pink collar jobs."  My old position, a welfare caseworker, was, in the 1950's and 60's, considered to be "pink collar," or "a woman's job." 

By the way, you can't retire something unless it has been around for a while.