Income taxes

[Richard]

I am a bit obsessed with income taxes because I believe it is unconstitutional in the United States and not mandatory in Canada.

Suffice to say, hypothetically, you find a way to not pay income taxes.  What would you do?

I would pay NO taxes.  It is a direct tax and unappropiated.  It is wrong.  It is my money, my labor, my work, and I shall decide how to spend it.

[Richard]

I'm asking what YOU would do.  I have enough knowledge to ensure I shall be paying minimal to no taxes through offshore corporate entities and holding companies.  I'm specializing my entire CA [CPA] designation around US and Canadian taxes.

[Richard]

Yes, the 16th amendment to the Constitution is clearly unconstitutional.

Brushaber vs. Union Pacific Railroad, 1916.

[Richard]

I'd have no problem paying 70%+ of my income assuming that it is spent on worthwhile services.

Generally I find the anti-tax religion to be the most simplistic and idealistic on the planet and its believers to generally be the most worthless people to society.

So there is a condition.

[Richard]

Volunteer more than 30% of my income to the government. I not only favor direct taxation but progressive direct taxation

I wish I was paying tax at a rate of 40%. I look at it this way, the more I earn the more I can afford to pay. I'd consider it a blessing

Dave

Then put your actions where your mouth is and next time you file an income tax return, send a check to the government.  The UK government does accept donations, and you can even mark it for a special area of the budget.  Do you promise to do so?

[Richard]

Oh I see.  So you too have a qualifier.

It seems everyone that is so convinced 40% is reasonable doesn't make enough to pay 40%.  Hence, everyone that is convinced 40% is reasonable is convinced that it is appropiate for others.

Noble.

[Richard]

I urge everyone that is not a liberal to research trusts and holding companies.  By utilizing trusts and holding companies, and also corporations of say, the Seychelles, one can reduce one's tax liability to zero (provided you are able to work for yourself).  This is without fancy tricks such as detaxcanada.org.  Smart, intelligent, educated people SHOULD know that it is possible to avoid paying any income taxes.  Many rich folks do it, and I encourage all conservatives and libertarians to do so.

One last hint: bearer-shareholder corporations are your friend.  And so is numbered corporations.  "832344724 Ontario Ltd." is a good example of a corporation that is difficult to remember and track.  Unfortunately Ontario does not allow bearer-shareholders, but Seychelles does which provides one with the ability to set up a completely anonymous corporation with unknown shareholders and one anonymous director.  Make that the holding company of say your numbered company in whichever jurisiction you like (perhaps jointly owned with another local numbered company), invest, and watch the tax people cringe trying to follow the money.

[Richard]

That sounds like an awful lot of work just to get out of paying income taxes.

I see in my future two paths.  One I will pay $100,000 a year in taxes and in the other I don't.

Even if you can save just $5,000 a year in taxes, over say 30 years the present value at say, investment return of 5% p.a. and inflation of 2% p.a. yields $405,000.  That is inflation adjusted, present value today.  Do you think 100 hours of time on this subject is too much?  It translates into about $4,000/hour.

[Richard]

So, will you also forgo all those things that taxes pay for?  Roads to drive on, police services, that silly medical care canadians get?  Are you willing to sit in an armed compound with a shotgun and live it up wild west style?

Sir, you make an argument, but let me counter with the fact that roads are paid for by a gasoline tax both federally and provincially, and police services are paid for by municipal taxes.  I am a capitalist and believe in paying for what services or products are rendered unto me.  I'm not saying pay NO taxes.  I'm saying pay no INCOME taxes.  And no, I am not interested in the Canadian health care.  My family has private insurance, and I shall continue to have private comprehensive insurance.

[Richard]

I urge everyone that is not a liberal to research trusts and holding companies.  By utilizing trusts and holding companies, and also corporations of say, the Seychelles, one can reduce one's tax liability to zero (provided you are able to work for yourself).  This is without fancy tricks such as detaxcanada.org.  Smart, intelligent, educated people SHOULD know that it is possible to avoid paying any income taxes.  Many rich folks do it, and I encourage all conservatives and libertarians to do so.

One last hint: bearer-shareholder corporations are your friend.  And so is numbered corporations.  "832344724 Ontario Ltd." is a good example of a corporation that is difficult to remember and track.  Unfortunately Ontario does not allow bearer-shareholders, but Seychelles does which provides one with the ability to set up a completely anonymous corporation with unknown shareholders and one anonymous director.  Make that the holding company of say your numbered company in whichever jurisiction you like (perhaps jointly owned with another local numbered company), invest, and watch the tax people cringe trying to follow the money.

Once again here is the prove that show that John K. Galbraith was right all along when he said: "The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."

Why is it when speaking of liberty in rightwing-speak it's always "not paying taxes", for me that's the last thing which comes to mind when speaking of liberty. Freedom of expression and freedom from any sort of restrictive morality (whether Legal or societal - yes libertarians there is more one of type of societal guidelides, not always put across by the state.) are more important to me.

I'm not interested in justifying my selfishness because I believe everyone is selfish and see no personal moral objection to it.  Selfishness, actually, is the foundation of a good capitalist society and necessary to a free state.  I'm a selfish individual in that I want to choose how the product of my labor is spent.

[Richard]

I urge everyone that is not a liberal to research trusts and holding companies.  By utilizing trusts and holding companies, and also corporations of say, the Seychelles, one can reduce one's tax liability to zero (provided you are able to work for yourself).  This is without fancy tricks such as detaxcanada.org.  Smart, intelligent, educated people SHOULD know that it is possible to avoid paying any income taxes.  Many rich folks do it, and I encourage all conservatives and libertarians to do so.

One last hint: bearer-shareholder corporations are your friend.  And so is numbered corporations.  "832344724 Ontario Ltd." is a good example of a corporation that is difficult to remember and track.  Unfortunately Ontario does not allow bearer-shareholders, but Seychelles does which provides one with the ability to set up a completely anonymous corporation with unknown shareholders and one anonymous director.  Make that the holding company of say your numbered company in whichever jurisiction you like (perhaps jointly owned with another local numbered company), invest, and watch the tax people cringe trying to follow the money.

Translation:  I like to shirk my duty to my country.

That implies income tax is a duty to my country.  It is not.  It wasn't even there before 1916ish in Canada, and it was a temporary way of paying for World War I.  World War I has ended and so has my duty to pay it.

[Richard]

The thing that I don't really understand is why people who oppose the existence of taxes seem to be perfectly fine making use of things made possible by taxes, such as the public school system, roads, the police and firefighters, medical services, etc.  If they're going to make the argument that supporting the existence of taxes implies that you should volunteer a large chunk of your income to the government, I think it's perfectly fair turn it around and say that not supporting the existence of public services - made possible through taxes - implies that you should volunteer not to make use of any of them.

Do you NOT LISTEN?

public school system [municipal taxes]
roads [gasoline tax]
the police and firefighters [municipal taxes]
medical services [income taxes, yes, but I shall pay for myself]

And no, I do NOT use public services provided through income taxes, with a few notable exceptions such as national defense.  But then, does Canada really have a defense?  Doubtful.

[Richard]

That implies income tax is a duty to my country.

Ah but it is your duty.

I'm rather curious to know your basis for that.  Just 100 years ago that was not true.  Why should I pay a tax to fund a war that has been over for decades?

[Richard]

So then what is one's duties to one's country?  If I have multiple citizenships, would you say I have to pay my 40% tax in Canada and another 35% income tax in the USA since both tax on worldwide income?  It is one's duty to pay 75% income taxes by just breaking $120,000 in income a year?  Stupid.

Income taxes have nothing to do with one's "duty" to one's country.  I would have you show me an argument if you disagree.

[Richard]

I'm rather curious to know your basis for that.  Just 100 years ago that was not true.  Why should I pay a tax to fund a war that has been over for decades?

It has always been true.  It is your duty to pay your taxes.

I need an argument.  "It has always been true" is not an argument.  It is not even a reason.  WHY is it my duty?

[Richard]

So then what is one's duties to one's country?  If I have multiple citizenships, would you say I have to pay my 40% tax in Canada and another 35% income tax in the USA since both tax on worldwide income?  It is one's duty to pay 75% income taxes by just breaking $120,000 in income a year?  Stupid.

Income taxes have nothing to do with one's "duty" to one's country.  I would have you show me an argument if you disagree.

I don't believe in multiple citizenship, so it's a moot point. And I agree that it is also stupid, if that's what your last remark is supposed to mean.

I don't think the question of one's duties to one's coountry is much to argue about. I belive they exist, you don't. I haven't seen much argument from your side either.

Just because you don't believe in it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  Many people have multiple citizenships.  For UK/France it is not a problem (for example), because they tax not on worldwide income.  Other countries do, and that is a problem.

So once again, would it be a person's duty to pay his 75% in income taxes?

I do believe in duty to one's country, just not income taxes.  At least, not in the United States and Canada.

[Richard]

So then what is one's duties to one's country?  If I have multiple citizenships, would you say I have to pay my 40% tax in Canada and another 35% income tax in the USA since both tax on worldwide income?  It is one's duty to pay 75% income taxes by just breaking $120,000 in income a year?  Stupid.

Income taxes have nothing to do with one's "duty" to one's country.  I would have you show me an argument if you disagree.

I don't believe in multiple citizenship, so it's a moot point. And I agree that it is also stupid, if that's what your last remark is supposed to mean.

I don't think the question of one's duties to one's coountry is much to argue about. I belive they exist, you don't. I haven't seen much argument from your side either.

Just because you don't believe in it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  Many people have multiple citizenships.  For UK/France it is not a problem (for example), because they tax not on worldwide income.  Other countries do, and that is a problem.

So once again, would it be a person's duty to pay his 75% in income taxes?

I do believe in duty to one's country, just not income taxes.  At least, not in the United States and Canada.

Eh...do you have even a basic idea of what an argument is like? I could say that in a dictatorship you don't even have the right to your own life, and certainly not to your property. If you replied that you didn't support such systems of government I wouldn't be refuting you by stating that they "exist". I don't believe people should be allowed to be citizens of two countries at the same time. This is a good reason for it.

But people are.  So once again, what is my duty in this case?  Taxes to both countries?

And you didn't answer the first question either: why is it a duty?  On what basis?

[Richard]

The state is not my master!!

For everything in this country, there is some sort of duty or levy.  Why is income tax a duty?

Using your approach of the common good, can we make other things people's duty?  Like mandatory military service for 1 or 2 years after you turn 18?  Perhaps ban smoking, since it will be better for everyone, and it is hence your duty.

It is not a valid approach.

[Richard]

So then what is one's duties to one's country?  If I have multiple citizenships, would you say I have to pay my 40% tax in Canada and another 35% income tax in the USA since both tax on worldwide income?  It is one's duty to pay 75% income taxes by just breaking $120,000 in income a year?  Stupid.

You don't have dual citizenship.

I do, but that is beyond the scope of this thread.

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And taxes in Canada and the U.S. is based on residency, not citizenship.

[Richard]

The truth of the matter is that you are basically promoting anarachy with your idea of no income taxes, unless you find another way for the government to get that money it would go bankrupt and not be able to provide even basic necessities.

There was government until 1916, was there not?

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Sheeple

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My parents paid, I never got any free education.

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What debt?

[Richard]

The state is not my master!!

For everything in this country, there is some sort of duty or levy.  Why is income tax a duty?

Using your approach of the common good, can we make other things people's duty?  Like mandatory military service for 1 or 2 years after you turn 18?  Perhaps ban smoking, since it will be better for everyone, and it is hence your duty.

It is not a valid approach.

The truth of the matter is that you are basically promoting anarachy with your idea of no income taxes, unless you find another way for the government to get that money it would go bankrupt and not be able to provide even basic necessities. Paying taxes is something that no one likes, but NEARLY everyone realizes the worth of taxes to the community as a whole. And it kinda is part of your duty to your country, remember that FREE education you have recieved all the way through high school, think of this as a way of repaying your dept to the country, be thankful that you live in such a prosperous place. Besides the arguement is a bit moot as unless there is a huge unforseen upheaval in politics then the income tax will not be abolished.

If what he promotes is "anarchy", please sir, tell me how the US survived before World War I.

The country survived through maintaining high tariffs. I like my cheap imports, so I prefer the income tax.

I think I can create a good federal government.  The federal budget will be $30 billlion a year (averaged to about $100 per person).  No one employed in public office will receive compensation.  Put $29.9 into defense, and take the $100 million and maintain D.C.

Number of services offered to the public: 2
- national defense
- a meeting place for the sovereign States

[Richard]

Okay, now I see you meant the U.S.

You've proved how shortsighted and unrealistic your thinking is.  Defend the U.S on $29 billion per year?  Wow.. that's just stupid thinking right there.

Certainly no invasions of other countries.  Obviously, individuals that are concerned will be allowed to directly contribute to the Department of War.  It will even be encouraged.

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Me?  Nothing.  Obviously what you say is true if you do it over a period of a day.  Did I make such a suggestion?  Did I?

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History proves you wrong.

[Richard]

You have more than enough nukes as a deterrant.

And yeah, 50 separate entities.  That would be great.  That was how it was meant to be.  Go read your Constitution.

And really, I don't care what you think, but I won't be paying income taxes because I'm smart enough to either hide it, or get paid offshore.  And you won't believe how many of your own citizens in the 40% income tax margin don't pay taxes either because they have good accountants.  So good bye, and thanks for all the fish.

[Richard]

And yeah, 50 separate entities.  That would be great.  That was how it was meant to be.  Go read your Constitution.

You seem to have confused the Articles of Confederation with the Constitution.

Isn't there a section about all powers not delegated to the federal government is reserved for the States and the people?  I think it is.  Now list all the F* agencies and where the Constitution authorizes them.




I thought so.

Idiot.

[Richard]

Not direct unapportioned taxes.