Pope grovels to Muslims

[J-Mann]

The Pope's remarks were hypocritical. It's not like bad things never happened under Christianity. That aside, the Arabs were providing progress in fields like mathematics and astronomy whilst Europeans were busy disembowling and beheading each other in the middle ages.

Again, you've focused on the one quote he made in the context of an entire speech and, in reaction, seek to silence on man from speaking simply because of the sins of Catholics past. That's an unreasonable standard that you wouldn't want to be held to; just like we're urged not to consider all Muslims to be terrorist, we can't expect the current Pope not to denounce extremism simply because Catholics used to be the ones who were the extremists.

Ancient Arab progress is admirable, to be sure, but it does not excuse any current disregard for freedom of speech or give them a free pass to practice religious fanaticism at the expense of innocents. Extremists deserve to be called out for what they are.

Besides, the Pope's speech was not aimed in any way at denouncing Islam -- his quote was in the much wider context of his overall speech, which used that 600-year-old debate between a Muslim scholar and a Byzantine emperor to highlight earlier cautioning against religious extremism and violence. It was a small point made to highlight the folly of extremism. The Muslim reaction (and silent acceptance by the majority of Islam) is proving his point better than any speech ever could.

[J-Mann]

Again? It's the first time I've done it. Unless you're referring to others who've done the same.

Yes -- in reference to others who have made the same argument (again meaning more that I'm saying this again, just in a different thread).

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Perhaps not in so many words, but the argument of hypocrisy so often states that one has "no room to talk." I think he has every right and all the room to talk against extremism; though specific theological arguments will persist, the Catholic Church and Christianity as a whole has moved beyond extremism, gut reactions and violence to solve its problems.

The quote in question was in a wider context warning against an extremism that, yes, used to plague the Catholic Church. Can't that church's leader legitimately warn others not to fall down the same path? It seems to me that it would only be hypocrisy if the Pope was speaking against Muslim extremism, then having his Swiss guards go blow up Mosques.

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The quote itself may have labled Mohammed's tactics uncivilized, but the quote is only directly applicable to Benedict if you don't appreciate the context of the speech. It was an example that the debate over religious extremism and tactics has been going on for a long time ... the quote in question was part of a debate between a Muslim scholar and a Byzantine emperor. Those points are conveniently lost on the media covering the story.

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Fortunately, Christianity has moved beyond the type of fervour that so often grips the Muslim world. Humanity does not have to be self-loathing because of the sins of its past; we evolve, we grow and we move on, recognizing mistakes in our past and warning against them in the future ... ideally, anyway. I personally think it's a shame that a miniscule part of an academic lecture has been blown so far out of proportion and, in the process, making the very point the Pope was trying to make in the first place.

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Relevance aside, I'm not seeking to be the exact opposite of you on this issue, but to expand and diverge off of points you made. Yes, I noticed our points are similar in places ... sorry to "judge" you, but don't post, especially without full explanations, if you can't handle a response. (I know you can -- and did just now, for the most part -- Michael, from my time on here before -- I'd just like to see everyone drop the oversensitive "don't judge me" crap. It's easy to misinterpret someone when they only post a sentence or two -- response should be expected in order to more fully understand a position.)

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Always difficult to tell; however, I haven't seen any prominent Muslims come forward to denounce the furor that is growing over this. Silence is acquiescence.

[J-Mann]

The problem with the reaction is - how representative a picture are we getting?

Very unrepresentative o/c. Hell, even the Muslim Brotherhood have accepted his apology, and most Muslim organisations over here did so before he even made a public apology.

But clearly the actions of a few nutters in Palestine are representative of one sixth of the World's population...

And you never see that really widely reported either ... at least I haven't. The extremists get all the attention, for sure.

[J-Mann]

The pope is free to say whatever he wants, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea to try to start the next Crusades.

The saddest thing to me is that a one sentence quote from an emperor long dead that was to be taken in the wider context of a discussion on extremism, which, in turn, was to be taken in the wider context of a speech on faith and reason is the spark that sets extremist Muslims off.

Someone was not only looking for this in the speech, but blew it out of proportion as well.

Why should we let fear control what we say? The popularized Muslim reaction to a few words is the most frightening thing about this incident, but I'm not going to ignore their reaction simply because of potential reprisal.