Israeli Airstrikes on Gaza

[Јas]

And the estimated Palestinian civilian death toll yesterday was over 30. - Reuters

[Јas]

OK, these Palestinian medical officials who are giving the casualty figures- who are they actually?

Cousins to Saddam's Information Minister?

I've not seen Israel dispute the reported numbers of fatlities/casualties on the Palestinian side (grateful for any citations either of you can provide as to where Israel do so). Their disagreement, AFAIK, regards just how many of the dead/injured were Hamas operatives.

And if Israel don't dispute the overall figures, why do you?

[Јas]

Vatican: "Look at the conditions in Gaza: more and more, it resembles a big concentration camp".

- BBC Report

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Hamas ceasefire

"The group said it would hold fire so long as Israel withdrew all its forces from Gaza Strip within one week."

"The group said the ceasefire would be temporary unless Israel also stopped military action, ended its blockade of the Gaza Strip and opened border crossings between Gaza and Israel."

[Јas]

What virtue is there in a proportional response? 

Proportional responses don't foster resentment and ire amongst peoples who are, or are perceived to be, oppressed - such that it creates a new generation of potential insurgents and moves everyone that much further from a potential peaceful settlement.

(That and proportionality is generally viewed as a requirement under international law.)

[Јas]

Have they expressed any concern whatsoever about Hamas violating the Geneva Conventions by dressing and civilians and using human shields?

However unsavoury Hamas's tactics may be, neither they nor Palestine are parties to the Geneva Conventions and by the Conventions own provisions are therefore not subject to the rules therein.

[Јas]

I'd much rather they fight them in the courts instead launching more rocket attacks at civilians. 


Maybe they could boycot Jewish goods next?  Sit Ins?  Go on strike?  Something peacefull so Israel doesn't have an excuse to blow them up again.  Their methods up until now have been pretty freaking stupid.

The methods you propose would not be effective or even noticed.

Like it or not, the methods Hamas employ gain them international attention. Getting Israel to engage in blowing stuff up is sometimes exactly what Hamas want. It generates significant sympathy and support for Palestinian extremists when Israel pulls the trigger and hundreds of innocents suffer.

The coincidence of an Israeli Government in need of a poll boost coming up to new elections, the departure of a US President willing to take instruction from Jerusalem, and an incoming US President who remains an unknown quantity, gave Israel a unique opportunity to engage at little immediate cost (though I suspect at the medium-long term cost of increased security concerns and the movement further away from securing a peaceful long-term solution to the wider conflict).

[Јas]

Have they expressed any concern whatsoever about Hamas violating the Geneva Conventions by dressing and civilians and using human shields?

However unsavoury Hamas's tactics may be, neither they nor Palestine are parties to the Geneva Conventions and by the Conventions own provisions are therefore not subject to the rules therein.

So they are exempt from being "obsessed over" by human rights groups?

What is there to obsess over?
No human rights group would deny that Hamas's tactics are plainly unwarranted, indefensible and detestable.

[Јas]

Big surprise! It turns out we can't trust the Palestinians to provide an accurate death toll:

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The IDF estimate fatalities at between 1,100-1,200.
Do you accuse the Israelis of not being trustworthy enough to provide an accurate death toll either?

[Јas]

I'd much rather they fight them in the courts instead launching more rocket attacks at civilians. 


Maybe they could boycot Jewish goods next?  Sit Ins?  Go on strike?  Something peacefull so Israel doesn't have an excuse to blow them up again.  Their methods up until now have been pretty freaking stupid.

The methods you propose would not be effective or even noticed.

Like it or not, the methods Hamas employ gain them international attention. Getting Israel to engage in blowing stuff up is sometimes exactly what Hamas want. It generates significant sympathy and support for Palestinian extremists when Israel pulls the trigger and hundreds of innocents suffer.

Exactly.  Which is why I find it so weird that people actually want them to "win" here and totally ignore the atrocities committed by Hamas.

Who here wants them to win?

The coincidence of an Israeli Government in need of a poll boost coming up to new elections,

Except the last time Israel took action against this kind of thing, the people were very displeased with it.

Different circumstances.
Particularly, IMO, significant numbers of fatalities and casualties to Israeli soldiers and citizens and the failure to destroy Hezbollah stand out against the Government in Israeli public opinion.

[Јas]

Big surprise! It turns out we can't trust the Palestinians to provide an accurate death toll:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

The IDF estimate fatalities at between 1,100-1,200.
Do you accuse the Israelis of not being trustworthy enough to provide an accurate death toll either?

The IDF (unlike the US military in Iraq) constantly updated the body count during the war, which may have inflated their death toll estimate.

And yet, the IDF have not yet changed the estimates of the number of fatalities.
Nor, for that matter, have either the UN or the Red Cross done so.

It's interesting that a single report from a single anonymous source that hasn't yet been given credence by any international state or body is sufficient to prove to you that the Palestinians are liars and that Israel are honestly mistaken.

In any case, the doctor's statement that "most of them [the dead] are youths between the ages of 17 to 23 who were recruited to the ranks of Hamas" buttresses the Israeli claim that only a third of the dead were civilians.

The fact that you use that you think that as 'only' ¹/₃ of the dead are civilians is, IMO, deeply disturbing. How high would the proportion of civilian dead have to be to cause you some concern?

[Јas]

The fact that you use that you think that as 'only' ¹/₃ of the dead are civilians is, IMO, deeply disturbing. How high would the proportion of civilian dead have to be to cause you some concern?

I don't know as high as the proportion of civilians among the deaths caused by the IRA maybe?

[Јas]

As for who wants who to win, what outcome would you like to see out of this immediate situation here?  Egypt and Israel are not going to fling open the borders and let anybody bring whatever they want into Gaza, it's just not going to happen.  Some third party needs to come in, set up on the Gaza end of the checkpoints and do the searching.  Then bring in every legal thing they want.  For some reason, that probably won't happen.

I don't have a problem with any of that. My primary concern is simply that, as much as possible, the dignity and human rights of innocent by-standers is respected - measured principally against the generally accepted norms of international law.

[Јas]

The fact that you use that you think that as 'only' ¹/₃ of the dead are civilians is, IMO, deeply disturbing. How high would the proportion of civilian dead have to be to cause you some concern?

I don't know as high as the proportion of civilians among the deaths caused by the IRA maybe?

I'm making the point about the inanity of that post coming from an IRA supporter.

I recall questioning your logical consistency in opposing the IRA while supporting other similar groups elsewhere - but I do not, and never have, supported the IRA.