"The Left Case Against Open Borders" by Anegla Nagle

[Famous Mortimer]

Everyone should read this recent article which has been causing quite a commotion on the far left. Angela Nagle is an academic most famous for her research into the far right. She is a self proclaimed socialist though with lots of connections to the left (has spoken at meetings of the pro-Corbyn Momentum organization, multiple time Chapo Trap House guest). Left-wing publications (Jacobin, The Baffler) were all too afraid to publish this piece, so it appears in American Affairs Journal, which is a wonky journal for non-racial nationalists.

https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2018/11/the-left-case-against-open-borders/

Also, in the same vein, an older less discussed piece from Vanity Fair called "The Democratic Case for Restricting Immigration".

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/08/the-democratic-case-for-restricting-immigration

[Famous Mortimer]

Odd.  I don't know of any actual person including any politicians who are in favor of open borders.  The Economist magazine published an article stating that it would add trillions to the world economy, but their argument was as a 'thought piece.'

This was addressed in the article:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

[Famous Mortimer]

Odd.  I don't know of any actual person including any politicians who are in favor of open borders.  The Economist magazine published an article stating that it would add trillions to the world economy, but their argument was as a 'thought piece.'

This was addressed in the article:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

The 'no human is illegal' people are fringe.  Right wingers trying to claim that fringe groups on the left represent the mainstream left is a cynical game of the right.

You are detached from reality.

Here is a video of Tom Peres, the chairman of the Democratic Party (who was actually the more moderate of the two main candidates for the position, if you remember) saying "no human being is illegal".

https://dailycaller.com/2017/05/01/dnc-chairman-claims-no-human-being-is-illegal/#ixzz4fuUu1enn

[Famous Mortimer]

Odd.  I don't know of any actual person including any politicians who are in favor of open borders.  The Economist magazine published an article stating that it would add trillions to the world economy, but their argument was as a 'thought piece.'

This was addressed in the article:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

The 'no human is illegal' people are fringe.  Right wingers trying to claim that fringe groups on the left represent the mainstream left is a cynical game of the right.

You are detached from reality.

Here is a video of Tom Peres, the chairman of the Democratic Party (who was actually the more moderate of the two main candidates for the position, if you remember) saying "no human being is illegal".

https://dailycaller.com/2017/05/01/dnc-chairman-claims-no-human-being-is-illegal/#ixzz4fuUu1enn

You are easily frightened.

You are easily proven wrong.

[Famous Mortimer]

Odd.  I don't know of any actual person including any politicians who are in favor of open borders.  The Economist magazine published an article stating that it would add trillions to the world economy, but their argument was as a 'thought piece.'

This was addressed in the article:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

The 'no human is illegal' people are fringe.  Right wingers trying to claim that fringe groups on the left represent the mainstream left is a cynical game of the right.

You are detached from reality.

Here is a video of Tom Peres, the chairman of the Democratic Party (who was actually the more moderate of the two main candidates for the position, if you remember) saying "no human being is illegal".

https://dailycaller.com/2017/05/01/dnc-chairman-claims-no-human-being-is-illegal/#ixzz4fuUu1enn

You are easily frightened.

This is so indicative of the left-wing "debating" style on a number of issues, from immigration to giving HRT to children. At first they're like "no, no, this is a fringe position, you shouldn't even talk about it" then when you definitively demonstrate that it's not a fringe position, they switch gears to "what are you so afraid of? this is normal and good!"

[Famous Mortimer]

What concrete limits on immigration do establishment Democrats support? I have yet to see one say. Additionally, even if they did name a limit (which all have been too cowardly to do, as far as I know), would they support deporting everyone over that limit who comes in illegally? Or would they support amnesty and a "path to citizenship"?

[Famous Mortimer]

To be clear, I think we both know why Willips Brighton of all people was the one to share this on this board. If you're disturbed by the reasons behind his level of interest in this particular intra-left policy discussion, fair enough.

On the other hand, you don't really seem bright enough to be worth talking to, so I think I'll disengage here.

Don't know how bright you are, but you seem to be a liar.

Dude, you just said "no human being is illegal" is a fringe position and then I showed you a video of the head of the DNC saying "no human being is illegal"

You got owned

You should never be calling people dumb or a liar ever but especially not in the same g-ddamn thread.

[Famous Mortimer]

To be clear, I think we both know why Willips Brighton of all people was the one to share this on this board. If you're disturbed by the reasons behind his level of interest in this particular intra-left policy discussion, fair enough.

On the other hand, you don't really seem bright enough to be worth talking to, so I think I'll disengage here.

I'm posting it because I agree with it. Why else do you think I'm posting it?

I used to be very involved in the left. I was acquaintances with most of the Jacobin writers, with several of the Chapo people, and with Angela Nagle.

I left the left because of their unreasonableness on borders (which you yourself has said is an issue). I would gladly return to the left is they took Nagle's advice and abandoned this one civilization wrecking policy.

[Famous Mortimer]

No matter how meticulously I explain that taking on unlimited numbers of poor people makes it impossible for any working people to have a decent standard of living, people still think the REAL REASON I must oppose immigration is because I secretly hate brown people.

I posted these articles to show my stated views about economics are actually quite commonplace among prominent left identifying people. Albeit most remain crypto about their views for fear of having a mob of their fellow left wingers incited against them, as has happened to Nagle.

[Famous Mortimer]

Can you believe that both 1) we should have borders and 2) it should never be a crime to simply exist?

Well obviously. "No human being is illegal" is a slander that implies people who support immigration control think "people are illegal". People existing is not illegal, immigrating without authorization is illegal.

To say that Guatemalans should have to live in Guatemala is not to deny their humanity. Similarly, I do not think I should be able to go to Guatemala without the permission of their government. I am not denying my own humanity by saying that.

[Famous Mortimer]

This language on the right is as absurd as the privilege language on the left. Yes, I support "open borders", which means what the East German officials did in November 1989-- they opened the border. Unlimited immigration is a complete straw man.

Pretty much. You don't have to turn the world into a series of prisons just to have borders doesn't mean there can't be borders or rules on immigration.

Can you believe that both 1) we should have borders and 2) it should never be a crime to simply exist?

Well obviously. "No human being is illegal" is a slander that implies people who support immigration control think "people are illegal". People existing is not illegal, immigrating without authorization is illegal.

To say that Guatemalans should have to live in Guatemala is not to deny their humanity. Similarly, I do not think I should be able to go to Guatemala without the permission of their government. I am not denying my own humanity by saying that.

This is closer to the problem. There are many people who we associate with places whom themselves do not associate with this places because they feel that they cannot. The question is whether that is a problem, something that is absolutely none of our business unless we are directly impacted by it, or whether that is a good thing.

Most immigrants who come to America are economic migrants. They are not coming here because they are misunderstood emo kids who don't fit in in Honduras. In most cases, they still actually like Honduras (or wherever they are from) a whole lot. They just want to come to America because it's economically beneficial for them to do so. That's why once they get here, they usually socialize mostly with other immigrants.

[Famous Mortimer]

This language on the right is as absurd as the privilege language on the left. Yes, I support "open borders", which means what the East German officials did in November 1989-- they opened the border. Unlimited immigration is a complete straw man.

Pretty much. You don't have to turn the world into a series of prisons just to have borders doesn't mean there can't be borders or rules on immigration.

Can you believe that both 1) we should have borders and 2) it should never be a crime to simply exist?

Well obviously. "No human being is illegal" is a slander that implies people who support immigration control think "people are illegal". People existing is not illegal, immigrating without authorization is illegal.

To say that Guatemalans should have to live in Guatemala is not to deny their humanity. Similarly, I do not think I should be able to go to Guatemala without the permission of their government. I am not denying my own humanity by saying that.

This is closer to the problem. There are many people who we associate with places whom themselves do not associate with this places because they feel that they cannot. The question is whether that is a problem, something that is absolutely none of our business unless we are directly impacted by it, or whether that is a good thing.

Most immigrants who come to America are economic migrants. They are not coming here because they are misunderstood emo kids who don't fit in in Honduras. In most cases, they still actually like Honduras (or wherever they are from) a whole lot. They just want to come to America because it's economically beneficial for them to do so. That's why once they get here, they usually socialize mostly with other immigrants.

And that's bad... because?

1) Because people living in your country should be primarily loyal to your country. Otherwise there's no incentive for them to behave in your country's best interest. People should ideally view their country as a community, not a piggy bank.

2) Because most of the economic benefit they get from coming here is due to acting as scab labor (lowering wages for people already here) and getting access to social services (having the money of native born Americans redistributed to them via taxes). Both of those things are bad for native born Americans. They are good for the immigrants but the government would ideally be more concerned with the well being of their current citizens, rather than the well being hypothetical future citizens.

[Famous Mortimer]

This language on the right is as absurd as the privilege language on the left. Yes, I support "open borders", which means what the East German officials did in November 1989-- they opened the border. Unlimited immigration is a complete straw man.

Pretty much. You don't have to turn the world into a series of prisons just to have borders doesn't mean there can't be borders or rules on immigration.

Can you believe that both 1) we should have borders and 2) it should never be a crime to simply exist?

Well obviously. "No human being is illegal" is a slander that implies people who support immigration control think "people are illegal". People existing is not illegal, immigrating without authorization is illegal.

To say that Guatemalans should have to live in Guatemala is not to deny their humanity. Similarly, I do not think I should be able to go to Guatemala without the permission of their government. I am not denying my own humanity by saying that.

This is closer to the problem. There are many people who we associate with places whom themselves do not associate with this places because they feel that they cannot. The question is whether that is a problem, something that is absolutely none of our business unless we are directly impacted by it, or whether that is a good thing.

Most immigrants who come to America are economic migrants. They are not coming here because they are misunderstood emo kids who don't fit in in Honduras. In most cases, they still actually like Honduras (or wherever they are from) a whole lot. They just want to come to America because it's economically beneficial for them to do so. That's why once they get here, they usually socialize mostly with other immigrants.

And that's bad... because?

1) Because people living in your country should be primarily loyal to your country. Otherwise there's no incentive for them to behave in your country's best interest.

2) Because most of the economic benefit they get from coming here is due to acting as scab labor (lowering wages for people already here) and getting access to social services (having the money on native born Americans redistributed to them via taxes). Both of those things are bad for native born Americans. They are good for the immigrants but the government would ideally be more concerned with the well being of their current citizens, rather than the well being hypothetical future citizens.

1). Unsubstantiated nonsense.

2). Why should I care more about the lives of native born Americans than people who aren't native born Americans? I don't, and neither do most other Americans.

All human communities since the beginning of human communities have cared more about their members than about non-members.

If you want a fundamental change in the way human society is organized, that's your right to advocate for, but don't act like your historically bizarre views are standard and obviously correct.

[Famous Mortimer]

This language on the right is as absurd as the privilege language on the left. Yes, I support "open borders", which means what the East German officials did in November 1989-- they opened the border. Unlimited immigration is a complete straw man.

Pretty much. You don't have to turn the world into a series of prisons just to have borders doesn't mean there can't be borders or rules on immigration.

Can you believe that both 1) we should have borders and 2) it should never be a crime to simply exist?

Well obviously. "No human being is illegal" is a slander that implies people who support immigration control think "people are illegal". People existing is not illegal, immigrating without authorization is illegal.

To say that Guatemalans should have to live in Guatemala is not to deny their humanity. Similarly, I do not think I should be able to go to Guatemala without the permission of their government. I am not denying my own humanity by saying that.

This is closer to the problem. There are many people who we associate with places whom themselves do not associate with this places because they feel that they cannot. The question is whether that is a problem, something that is absolutely none of our business unless we are directly impacted by it, or whether that is a good thing.

Most immigrants who come to America are economic migrants. They are not coming here because they are misunderstood emo kids who don't fit in in Honduras. In most cases, they still actually like Honduras (or wherever they are from) a whole lot. They just want to come to America because it's economically beneficial for them to do so. That's why once they get here, they usually socialize mostly with other immigrants.

And that's bad... because?

1) Because people living in your country should be primarily loyal to your country. Otherwise there's no incentive for them to behave in your country's best interest.

2) Because most of the economic benefit they get from coming here is due to acting as scab labor (lowering wages for people already here) and getting access to social services (having the money on native born Americans redistributed to them via taxes). Both of those things are bad for native born Americans. They are good for the immigrants but the government would ideally be more concerned with the well being of their current citizens, rather than the well being hypothetical future citizens.

1). Unsubstantiated nonsense.

2). Why should I care more about the lives of native born Americans than people who aren't native born Americans? I don't, and neither do most other Americans.

I just realized

You said it was "nonsense" that immigrants don't put the interests of America first

and then you said you don't differentiate between the interests of Americans and the interests of foreigners

lol

[Famous Mortimer]

This language on the right is as absurd as the privilege language on the left. Yes, I support "open borders", which means what the East German officials did in November 1989-- they opened the border. Unlimited immigration is a complete straw man.

Pretty much. You don't have to turn the world into a series of prisons just to have borders doesn't mean there can't be borders or rules on immigration.

Can you believe that both 1) we should have borders and 2) it should never be a crime to simply exist?

Well obviously. "No human being is illegal" is a slander that implies people who support immigration control think "people are illegal". People existing is not illegal, immigrating without authorization is illegal.

To say that Guatemalans should have to live in Guatemala is not to deny their humanity. Similarly, I do not think I should be able to go to Guatemala without the permission of their government. I am not denying my own humanity by saying that.

This is closer to the problem. There are many people who we associate with places whom themselves do not associate with this places because they feel that they cannot. The question is whether that is a problem, something that is absolutely none of our business unless we are directly impacted by it, or whether that is a good thing.

Most immigrants who come to America are economic migrants. They are not coming here because they are misunderstood emo kids who don't fit in in Honduras. In most cases, they still actually like Honduras (or wherever they are from) a whole lot. They just want to come to America because it's economically beneficial for them to do so. That's why once they get here, they usually socialize mostly with other immigrants.

Well just a few months ago the Honduran Government was arresting and shooting protesters. Seems easier to just move for the benefit of your family then get shot in a revolution, a revolution that would ultimately be squashed by the U.S.–backed regime.

Why don’t we help the immigrants home country develop jobs and personal liberties, that way they won’t immigrate here. Why don’t we also stop buying drugs in large quantities, causing violence in the region.

You lie that Immigrants only converse with their own people. I see my own talk to regular joes all the time. I see Muslims celebrate Hannukah over here. I know that there is actually a lack of conversing with the immigrants own, taking the toll of weakening their mother tongues and customs. I know soldiers from all backgrounds going to fight for liberty here. Stop lying here now, some of us actually are these people.

Immigrants advocating for more immigration against the wishes and economic interests of native born Americans.

That just proves my point that most immigrants don't put America first.

They put the interests of their foreign relatives who might hypothetically become Americans first and that's understandable, it's rational but it's also understandable and rational for Americans not to want anymore immigrants who don't put America first.

[Famous Mortimer]

We need to recognize that everyone in this thread is being self interested. No one here is showing "solidarity".

Immigrants are advocating for more American resources to go to immigrants.

I, a native born American, am advocating that American resources stay among the current population.

The only difference is I'm in my own country, the country my parents were born in. I'm not going to another country and advocating that I get their resources.

[Famous Mortimer]

This language on the right is as absurd as the privilege language on the left. Yes, I support "open borders", which means what the East German officials did in November 1989-- they opened the border. Unlimited immigration is a complete straw man.

Pretty much. You don't have to turn the world into a series of prisons just to have borders doesn't mean there can't be borders or rules on immigration.

Can you believe that both 1) we should have borders and 2) it should never be a crime to simply exist?

Well obviously. "No human being is illegal" is a slander that implies people who support immigration control think "people are illegal". People existing is not illegal, immigrating without authorization is illegal.

To say that Guatemalans should have to live in Guatemala is not to deny their humanity. Similarly, I do not think I should be able to go to Guatemala without the permission of their government. I am not denying my own humanity by saying that.

This is closer to the problem. There are many people who we associate with places whom themselves do not associate with this places because they feel that they cannot. The question is whether that is a problem, something that is absolutely none of our business unless we are directly impacted by it, or whether that is a good thing.

Most immigrants who come to America are economic migrants. They are not coming here because they are misunderstood emo kids who don't fit in in Honduras. In most cases, they still actually like Honduras (or wherever they are from) a whole lot. They just want to come to America because it's economically beneficial for them to do so. That's why once they get here, they usually socialize mostly with other immigrants.

Well just a few months ago the Honduran Government was arresting and shooting protesters. Seems easier to just move for the benefit of your family then get shot in a revolution, a revolution that would ultimately be squashed by the U.S.–backed regime.

Why don’t we help the immigrants home country develop jobs and personal liberties, that way they won’t immigrate here. Why don’t we also stop buying drugs in large quantities, causing violence in the region.

You lie that Immigrants only converse with their own people. I see my own talk to regular joes all the time. I see Muslims celebrate Hannukah over here. I know that there is actually a lack of conversing with the immigrants own, taking the toll of weakening their mother tongues and customs. I know soldiers from all backgrounds going to fight for liberty here. Stop lying here now, some of us actually are these people.

Immigrants advocating for more immigration against the wishes and economic interests of native born Americans.

That just proves my point that most immigrants don't put America first.

They put the interests of their foreign relatives who might hypothetically become Americans first and that's understandable, it's rational but it's also understandable and rational for Americans not to want anymore immigrants who don't put America first.

Actually, nothing you've said is rational. You've just made a bunch of unsubstantiated claims and then drew bizarre conclusions from them.

Why didn't you reply to my comment? Tired of getting humiliated in front of an audience?

I didn't respond to your comment because there was no need to. The idea that the United States shouldn't be a meaningful community in any way, that it should just be an economic zone, that's your view. I thank you for stating it so nakedly. I don't think there's any need to refute it because I think most normal people find it distasteful on their own.

[Famous Mortimer]

We need to recognize that everyone in this thread is being self interested. No one here is showing "solidarity".

Immigrants are advocating for more American resources to go to immigrants.

I, a native born American, am advocating that American resources stay among the current population.

The only difference is I'm in my own country, the country my parents were born in. I'm not going to another country and advocating that I get their resources.

A good 20% of future American economists in my class were descendants of or are recent immigrants. Heck, an insane number of math teachers near me are immigrants. Having names such as Bohuslav, Abrahamovic, and Saiqi in the class as teachers are not uncommon in this area. Take into mind that I go to a white bread private school, those immigrants are directly fostering “your” peoples’ skills.

Tell me friend, what’s your ancestry. Let’s see if I can’t find a recent immigrant ancestor no earlier than the Mayflower Puritans.

lol economists contribute jack to the economy. All they do is write papers about how we need more immigration.

We could deport every immigrant AND native born economist tomorrow and it wouldn't make a difference to the economy.

[Famous Mortimer]

"if we don't have immigrants, who will write the Cato Institute policy papers advocating for more immigrants!"

[Famous Mortimer]

This is one of the things that I actually do somewhat agree with Trump on, and I'm not afraid to say it as someone who usually cannot stand him.

While the issue of immigration is much smaller than it is made out to be, I don't see a problem with addressing concerns that people are crossing into the country illegally. I've long supported legal immigration while better enforcing the border to stop more undocumented immigrants from coming in.

As for undocumented immigrants who are already in the country, that's a tougher question. The best solution to the problem I can see is to provide a path to citizenship. However, undocumented immigrants who have committed violent crimes should be deported. This might upset those on the right who see this as "amnesty", but simply rounding up every undocumented immigrant who has lived in the country for years is impractical, and the money used to do that has better uses.

Respectfully, I think you should re-think your wording here. Trump's "position" on the border is to cater to racism and xenophobia for political capital, nothing more.

There are very real issues related to immigration that do need to be publicly addressed and solved (or solutions will emerge that will not be good for anyone), including: employers abusing illegal labor (and the nasty realities of some major sectors of our economy, including food production), the strong strain of xenophobia in our culture, our *need* for immigration, coming demographic shifts and how we are going to handle them, how to address the needs of our fellow human beings in the Western Hemisphere and elsewhere, how to address climate-driven mass migration, and ultimately what sort of society do we want to have here in the US (assuming that the States continue to be United) and how do we make it happen.

Republicans and Trump address none of this. They simply fan flames and hope that when everything has burned down, there will magically be a replica of the house from Leave It To Beaver standing amidst the rubble.

Funny that you have a Hitler-Trump sig because this is absolutely totalitarian propaganda you just wrote. Some guy voices his concern about illegal immigration and you feign agreement that "yes, there are issues" but all the issues are about how we don't give enough free stuff to foreigners and we don't smile hard enough when we give them free stuff.

[Famous Mortimer]

Angela Nagle is an idiot and doesn't represent anyone on the left at all.

Open borders is the only morally justifiable immigration policy for a nation as large and as rich as the United States of America.

We wouldn't be rich anymore if we redistribute all our resources among all the needy of the world. We would end up needy ourselves.