Obama has torture memos released

[Ban my account ffs!]

The torture memos made me pretty sick.  Reading them just made me glad that the 8 year Bush nightmare is over.

[War on Want]

px75, you really don't think Americans are tortured when captured by Al-Qaeda? Do you really think they give a sh**t about the Geneva convention?

It doesn't matter if they don't care. We are legally required to.

Nobody thinks your cock is longer for pretending to be macho on the Internet.

I just don't understand the mentality of coddling terrorists that are trying to kill Americans. No wonder Democrats always lose on national security issues.

Part of defeating terrorism is being an example that we are better than them morally. Lowering ourselves to their levels is not winning us points in preventing future terrorists. Is it that hard for you to comprehend that not bending, breaking, or avoiding international law is good for both our future and the future of the countries we've invaded? Islamic terrorists adore a tortured martyr, it's perfect recruiting material. I don't know how many ways to state this - but what's terrifying is that there are millions of people out there just like you who don't understand. I really am beginning to think it goes beyond the "anything to get the needed information" schtick (a valid concern, of course, just not a real solution to the problem) and really does venture into some sadistic pleasure.

If you really think that, you're an idiot.  While we go on being 'moral' the terrorists will still be attacking.  They're not going to quit because they see this as a war (not as a criminal matter as most liberals see it).  Also, we're not 'stooping down to their level'.  If someone attacks you with a knife and you retaliate, it is not being evil but being defensive.  Right now we're doing what we failed to do in the 90's by not reacting but taking preventive measures to make sure our citizens don't get killed.  The two are not comparable.

Torture accomplishes nothing besides hurting the United States' image. Whether you think this or not is besides the point because it is true. Other countries and common citizens form negative opinions of America based on our actions that end up hurting it. Einzige never said this so I decided to bring it up.

To everything else you have been saying WE ARE NOT AT WAR. Terrorism is a criminal act but it is not an act of war. You have been building up this stupid argument that terrorists are militia groups and are not subject to the Geneva Convention and then you say we are at war with them. Well Al-Qaeda and other groups are criminal groups just as much as the Neo-Nazis in America are. We are not in a perpetual war against them are we?

[Gustaf]

It's amazing how Einzige actually failed to win a debate that is pretty much a home-run. The kid's argumentative abilities really are among the worse I've ever seen.

Anyway, the torture stuff is scary. Good to hear that it's over.

[Zarn]

It's amazing how Einzige actually failed to win a debate that is pretty much a home-run. The kid's argumentative abilities really are among the worse I've ever seen.

Anyway, the torture stuff is scary. Good to hear that it's over.

Are you sure it is?

[Gustaf]

It's amazing how Einzige actually failed to win a debate that is pretty much a home-run. The kid's argumentative abilities really are among the worse I've ever seen.

Anyway, the torture stuff is scary. Good to hear that it's over.

Are you sure it is?

Lol. Not 100% I guess. But, yeah, I think they will refrain more in the future.

[Landslide Lyndon]

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/04/they-waterboarded-him-183-times-in-one-month-ctd.html#more


I was wondering how the pro-torture right would respond to the newest revelation that the torture technique designed to facilitate the instant "truth" from suspects within 20 seconds was nonetheless used on Zubaydah 83 times. Let us recall that a huge amount of information had already been retrieved from Zubaydah using the legal interrogation methods that the US relied upon for two centuries before Bush and Cheney. Most CIA agents were convinced he was not as high up as Bush had said publicly and did not believe he had anything more to tell. In the end, they were right:

[T]he harsher handling produced no breakthroughs, according to one former intelligence official with direct knowledge of the case. Instead, watching his torment caused great distress to his captors, the official said. Even for those who believed that brutal treatment could produce results, the official said, “seeing these depths of human misery and degradation has a traumatic effect.”

No nuclear ticking time bomb. Just an absence of usable intelligence. So they tortured and tortured, before ordering up transparently bad faith legal memos to provide retroactive legal cover.  Most of the major voices on the bloggy right are currently silent, which is their last-ditch defense when their "we do not torture" bluff is called. But some are opining:

What are the benefits of such a disclosure? Transparency for Al Qaeda? There are no benefits for American national security, which is the primary Constitutional charge assigned to the President. Military and intelligence personnel will be frozen, knowing that any decision -- at headquarters or in the field -- could be politicized by left-wing radicals bent on destroying America. The inevitable results: lawsuits; politicization of defense and intelligence activities; and -- I am sorry to say -- additional catastrophic attacks on America.

Notice that the blogger actually does not know the presidential oath which is about defending the constitution of the United States, a task made impossible when the commander-in-chief is secretly authorizing illegal war crimes and covering them up.


But watching as Bush-defenders have to keep defending, even as they abandon every previous position they held, until they are telling us to ignore acts that in any other country by any other government would have the US invoking Geneva and the UN Convention, is to watch how democracies die.

Watching one human being under the waterboard is grueling. Watching that individual with nothing more to say be waterboarded 83 times in one month must have been grotesque, demanding a level of sadism or callousness we usually see only in authoritarian or totalitarian regimes. And the process of torture was so grotesque, in fact, that John Rizzo, physically destroyed all the taped evidence. But, as Peggy Noonan insists,

"Sometimes you need to just keep walking."

The next time an American is tortured by a foreign regime, remember those words.

[Nym90]

The reason the interrogation in 1984 was objectionable is not the tactics alone, it is that the tactics were employed by a totalitarian government against political dissenters.

You can disagree with the tactics used in these interrogations, but it is moral confusion to see no difference between Orwell's big brother and the Bush administration.

You are focusing on the tactics used in an interrogation when you should focus more on who is doing the interrogation and for what purpose.

But what is it that makes us superior to the terrorists or a totalitarian state?

The answer, of course, is our actions. If our actions begin to emulate theirs, then so too does our character.

Not to mention that this is precisely what they want us to do, to give their own actions greater moral justification.

The battle against terrorism and totalitarianism is ultimately won in the hearts and minds of the people, not on the battlefield with guns and bombs (not that we don't need to use the latter methods to defend ourselves, of course). We can debate what the best way to persuade people is, but emulating those who we (rightfully) despise is not in my opinion the best way to do it.

[??????????]

I fail to see where any torture was committed.

[Landslide Lyndon]

I fail to see where any torture was committed.

Doesn't surprise me.
You are fail personified.

[Nym90]

I fail to see where any torture was committed.

Would these be considered acceptable if used against US POWs?

[??????????]

I fail to see where any torture was committed.

Would these be considered acceptable if used against US POWs?

I personally would not like it but yes, it's a legitimate tactic.

[Joe Republic]

I guess you'd have no problem being waterboarded yourself - given the opportunity - if it's not torture?

[??????????]

I guess you'd have no problem being waterboarded yourself - given the opportunity - if it's not torture?

I'm open for new experiences...

[Joe Republic]

Fair enough.  I'd be interested to see your take on this video:

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/video/2008/hitchens_video200808