is the whole idea of salvation through faith alone evil?

[RFayette]

No.  None of us are good enough to get into heaven, so salvation can't be based on our own works.  Luckily, Jesus Christ did all the work for us on the cross, and if we simply repent and put our trust in him alone, we will be saved.  Grace means unmerited favor, so yes, none of us deserve it, and that's the point.

[RFayette]

No.  None of us are good enough to get into heaven, so salvation can't be based on our own works.  Luckily, Jesus Christ did all the work for us on the cross, and if we simply repent and put our trust in him alone, we will be saved.  Grace means unmerited favor, so yes, none of us deserve it, and that's the point.

what did I do so wrong though?

I mean, my Catholic mother tells me I 'lost my salvation' because I'm no longer Catholic (due to the actions of the members of that church) but if anyone deserves to burn in hell it's her.

Sinned at all. That we all deserve to burn in hell is part of the point.

not everyone does.

i deserve to burn in hell and my mother deserves it even more than I do, but not everyone does.

How do you know this?

[RFayette]

Yes, and the maniacs who promote this way of thinking are trying to manipulate people for their own profit, and not because they actually believe it.

As I asked HillGoose already, how do you know this? 

Usually when you make incredible claims like this concerning vast swaths of people, it's best to make at least some effort to justify your statements.

[RFayette]

Yes, and the maniacs who promote this way of thinking are trying to manipulate people for their own profit, and not because they actually believe it.

As I asked HillGoose already, how do you know this?  

Usually when you make incredible claims like this concerning vast swaths of people, it's best to make at least some effort to justify your statements.

Because why the hell do Christians think that a Christian adult could rape a child and when the child grows up, develops mental illness as a result of the adult's behavior, and stop believing in God, if they commit suicide they'll go to hell FOREVER but the Christian will go to heaven FOREVER just for believing?

I've posed this scenario to Christians before, and yes this is what many of them said they believe would happen, while some say "Only God knows" but it's pretty clear what they think.

I don't believe that's justice and if God is actually like that, humanity's spiritual goal should be to overthrow God, not try to enter his Celestial North Korea.

The second part of my response was more to Solid who claimed that all Protestants don't actually believe what we profess, which is a ridiculous statement on its face.  To claim that a very heterogeneous group of nearly 1 billion people are all insincere is just crazy.

As far as what you are saying, all I can say is that according to the Bible, we all deserve God's judgment.  Again, grace means unmerited favor - the tough part is that this means that God can and does save people who have committed very vile crimes like murder and child molestation, and there are people who haven't physically committed these crimes and yet stand condemned. 

Part of the answer stems in the holiness of God.  Again, Jesus equates looking at a woman with lust as adultery and hatred with murder.  God's ways are so much higher than our ways, and so many things which seem unfair to us are perfectly fair to God both because he has more knowledge/information than we do and also because he has higher standards for justice than we could possibly fathom.

The difficult question is why God chooses to save some and not others.  Obviously, different denominations will have different explanations regarding the role of God's sovereignty and human free will, but as a Calvinist I do very much believe in election and predestination (as well as a sort of free will, a full reconciliation which I believe is impossible in our finite state/mind), so it does demand an answer. The Bible's response can be seen in verses like Psalm 115:3, Romans 9:22 (make his glory known and show his power), and others.  This is an exceedingly tough topic, but the bottom line is that we are so much more sinful than we can ever imagine, and God as creator has full rights over us and can do with us as he pleases.   

It's your choice how to respond to God's revelation.  What I will say is that the book of Revelation makes it clear that God has power over the devil and his adversaries, so any attempt to fight him will be unsuccessful.  The Bible does say that the judge of all the Earth will do what is right (Genesis 18:25).  However, you have to take it by faith, as Luther put it:  "This is the highest degree of faith , to believe him merciful when he saves so few and damns so many, and to believe him righteous when by his own will he makes us necessarily damnable, so that he seems, according to Erasmus [E., p. 41], to delight in the torments of the wretched and to be worthy of hatred rather than love."

[RFayette]

More unfathomable. I don't understand why a deity sufficiently powerful to create the universe and all its laws would be so human and petty to demand worship. If God does exist, the idea of them having a personality comprehensible to a human being, let alone feeling insecure due to a lack of worship, seems unrealistic.

Why are you, a finite human so certain that an infinite being would or wouldn't act a certain way?

Children sometimes have trouble understanding why their parents do what they do simply because they lack the knowledge and their parents are operating at a different level. The gap between an omnipotent, omniscient being and finite humanity dwarfs the gap between parent and child.

Due to that gap in knowledge, I don't think you can posit an omnipotent, omniscient being and deduce much about their character, at least not without additional information. Christians, Muslims etc have the benefit of God revealing his character through religious texts, but you presumably don't have that luxury.

William Lane Craig had a good point about this in one of his podcasts.  He was discussing the problem of evil, but it also applies to this; atheists have a heavy burden of proof to say that any action of God is morally wrong or unjustifiable because they would have to exhaustively rule out every conceivable objection and rule out the existence of unknown factors (which would obviously be applicable when we're talking about an omnipotent God) in order to make their case. 

Nonetheless, this isn't to say that it's a difficult question on an emotional level.  Scripture gives some pretty clear guideposts as to what a lot of the reason is for hell and for salvation being the way it is, but it is perfectly understandable why we as humans find these sayings hard.  Luther understood the scriptures better than just about any major Christian figure and he knew that this was a challenge - but as with many Biblical issues, faith is required on our end.

[RFayette]

More unfathomable. I don't understand why a deity sufficiently powerful to create the universe and all its laws would be so human and petty to demand worship. If God does exist, the idea of them having a personality comprehensible to a human being, let alone feeling insecure due to a lack of worship, seems unrealistic.

Why are you, a finite human so certain that an infinite being would or wouldn't act a certain way?

Children sometimes have trouble understanding why their parents do what they do simply because they lack the knowledge and their parents are operating at a different level. The gap between an omnipotent, omniscient being and finite humanity dwarfs the gap between parent and child.

Due to that gap in knowledge, I don't think you can posit an omnipotent, omniscient being and deduce much about their character, at least not without additional information. Christians, Muslims etc have the benefit of God revealing his character through religious texts, but you presumably don't have that luxury.

William Lane Craig had a good point about this in one of his podcasts.  He was discussing the problem of evil, but it also applies to this; atheists have a heavy burden of proof to say that any action of God is morally wrong or unjustifiable because they would have to exhaustively rule out every conceivable objection and rule out the existence of unknown factors (which would obviously be applicable when we're talking about an omnipotent God) in order to make their case.  

Nonetheless, this isn't to say that it's a difficult question on an emotional level.  Scripture gives some pretty clear guideposts as to what a lot of the reason is for hell and for salvation being the way it is, but it is perfectly understandable why we as humans find these sayings hard.  Luther understood the scriptures better than just about any major Christian figure and he knew that this was a challenge - but as with many Biblical issues, faith is required on our end.

Why should I trust a figure who apparently, like living under Adolf Hitler of Joseph Stalin, watch me every minute of my life, just waiting for me to commit thoughtcrime?

Pascal's Wager is a good place to start.  If you believe Christianity is factually true (and there are many reasons for doing so - just read a book by Frank Turek or J Warner Wallace to see the evidence), then it has implications.  You're better off trusting God then guaranteeing yourself a spot in hell. 

[RFayette]

More unfathomable. I don't understand why a deity sufficiently powerful to create the universe and all its laws would be so human and petty to demand worship. If God does exist, the idea of them having a personality comprehensible to a human being, let alone feeling insecure due to a lack of worship, seems unrealistic.

Why are you, a finite human so certain that an infinite being would or wouldn't act a certain way?

Children sometimes have trouble understanding why their parents do what they do simply because they lack the knowledge and their parents are operating at a different level. The gap between an omnipotent, omniscient being and finite humanity dwarfs the gap between parent and child.

Due to that gap in knowledge, I don't think you can posit an omnipotent, omniscient being and deduce much about their character, at least not without additional information. Christians, Muslims etc have the benefit of God revealing his character through religious texts, but you presumably don't have that luxury.

William Lane Craig had a good point about this in one of his podcasts.  He was discussing the problem of evil, but it also applies to this; atheists have a heavy burden of proof to say that any action of God is morally wrong or unjustifiable because they would have to exhaustively rule out every conceivable objection and rule out the existence of unknown factors (which would obviously be applicable when we're talking about an omnipotent God) in order to make their case.  

Nonetheless, this isn't to say that it's a difficult question on an emotional level.  Scripture gives some pretty clear guideposts as to what a lot of the reason is for hell and for salvation being the way it is, but it is perfectly understandable why we as humans find these sayings hard.  Luther understood the scriptures better than just about any major Christian figure and he knew that this was a challenge - but as with many Biblical issues, faith is required on our end.

Why should I trust a figure who apparently, like living under Adolf Hitler of Joseph Stalin, watch me every minute of my life, just waiting for me to commit thoughtcrime?

Pascal's Wager is a good place to start.  If you believe Christianity is factually true (and there are many reasons for doing so - just read a book by Frank Turek or J Warner Wallace to see the evidence), then it has implications.  You're better off trusting God then guaranteeing yourself a spot in hell. 

Pascal's Wager is a horrible place to start.  It only pay off if God is shallow enough to only want people to go thru the motions of religion without giving a damn about whether they really have faith.

Pascal's Wager is a starting point, not an ending one.  The idea is that you would enter a relationship with God because of fear of punishment, but the relationship would grow from there.  It seems the New Testament often invokes fear of punishment and the enticement of reward as motivation to repent, so it seems appropriate as a way to engage with doubt - if the stakes are this high, you're better off trusting in God so you don't go to hell.