BREAKING: Yevgeny Prigozhin dead after a jet crash in Russia

[oldtimer]

We should never sign peace with Russia, even if Ukraine conquered all land back, we should continue the war and march to Moscow.

I agree that the war will probably go on until Moscow falls.

But to make it happen quickly you would need to make a credible case to the Russian people that they and their country won't be harmed.

When President Wilson offered an armistice if the Kaiser was toppled, the germans toppled the Kaiser.

In contrast the Tehran Declaration in WW2 was a Nazi coup, it made pointless any change of leadership in Germany, it made it a fight to the death.

[oldtimer]

How delusional did Prigozhin have to be to keep jet setting to and from Moscow after his coup attempt? More or less delusional than he needed to be to launch a coup in the first place?

We can't be certain that he was on the plane, he could have been executed somewhere else earlier, and the plane used as an excuse to cover it.

Wagner and Prigozin should have defected to the West, a credible offer should have been given to them to switch sides.

[oldtimer]

Is Putin (Russian gov) actually trying to "pass" this as an accident?
Or are they admitting to shooting it down intentionally (which is what actually happened)?

Nobody in Russia is passing it off as an "accident", the official channels were the first to confirm his death and call it a "terrorist attack". I think it will be used as an excuse to escalate the war.

"excuse to escalate"

Garbage, Putin did nothing even when the Kremlin was bombed.

[oldtimer]

Is Putin (Russian gov) actually trying to "pass" this as an accident?
Or are they admitting to shooting it down intentionally (which is what actually happened)?

Nobody in Russia is passing it off as an "accident", the official channels were the first to confirm his death and call it a "terrorist attack". I think it will be used as an excuse to escalate the war.

"excuse to escalate"

Garbage, Putin did nothing even when the Kremlin was bombed.

I must be lost, when the kremlin was bombed? You mean that pathetic drone attack that was immediately shot down?

And the same threats where made over and over again and nothing happens.

They rattle their russian sabers but never draw them, because they are broken at the hilt.

[oldtimer]

https://metro.co.uk/2023/08/23/ten-killed-in-moscow-jet-crash-with-wagner-leader-on-passenger-list-19385966/

Russia’s civilian aviation regulator, Rosaviatsia, said he was on the passengers list, but it was not immediately clear if Prigozhin had actually boarded the flight.

So he is probably not dead.

Putin wouldn't stage a plane crash and not kill those on the passenger list.

Warning this is Graphic Video from the crash site:

https://twitter.com/WarMonitors/status/1694395349287198817?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7...

As you can see from the video the debris are all located together in a very small area, so it didn't blew up at a high altitude, and the bodies are just missing their heads but otherwise intact.

[oldtimer]

How delusional did Prigozhin have to be to keep jet setting to and from Moscow after his coup attempt? More or less delusional than he needed to be to launch a coup in the first place?

We can't be certain that he was on the plane, he could have been executed somewhere else earlier, and the plane used as an excuse to cover it.

Wagner and Prigozin should have defected to the West, a credible offer should have been given to them to switch sides.

LOL inviting hardened Russian mercenaries and their leader into the West was never remotely an option.

Do you know how many cutthroats defected during wars and cold wars ?

Better to have them on your side, rather than against you.

[oldtimer]

Wagner and Prigozin should have defected to the West, a credible offer should have been given to them to switch sides.

They spent 100% of their time either brutalising Ukrainians or proving why nobody could trust them.

So what ?

Does it matter if Wagner defected and captured Bakhmut for Ukraine for example ?

What matters is what is captured for which side, not by who.

[oldtimer]

anyone questioning why he'd kill Prigozhin does not have any knowledge of Russian history. See: Yagoda being Stalin's main man for purging until he himself was purged.

So what was the reason for Yagoda's killing?

Stalin ordered him to kill Kirov, so Yagoda was executed by Yezhov on Stalin's orders, to cover up the original crime.

Then Yezhov was also executed by Beria on Stalin's orders, because everyone in the USSR started to believe Yezhov was the real boss, and to cover up Stalin's involvement.

Basically the mafia habit of executing the executors so they can't talk.

We should expect the ones who obeyed the order to execute Prigozin, to also be executed by Putin.

[oldtimer]

Stalin ordered him to kill Kirov, so Yagoda was executed by Yezhov on Stalin's orders, to cover up the original crime.

Then Yezhov was also executed by Beria on Stalin's orders, because everyone in the USSR started to believe Yezhov was the real boss, and to cover up Stalin's involvement.

Basically the mafia habit of executing the executors so they can't talk.

We should expect the ones who obeyed the order to execute Prigozin, to also be executed by Putin.

Now, in this scheme, the reason for concealing the crime is unclear. Mafia bosses do this to prevent the FBI from catching them and putting them in jail. Who is capable of doing the same with Stalin or Putin? They can make anyone in Russia eat a bowl of sh** just by saying it's a chocolate pie and the person will say, "Yes, it's a delicious chocolate pie!"

We are not talking about the most clever nation in the world here.
Millions of soviets surrendered voluntarily for torture and execution.
They have no mind of their own, so they do it by the book.

All the executions in the Soviet Union where done under legal farce through it's vast bureaucratic system, even Stalin's execution would had to been done bureaucratically.

Nothing happens in Russia without the facade of necessary paperwork and legal forms, it's a bureaucratic dictatorship.

So Putin's orders must be based on some facade of legal excuse, on paper, stamped, signed, approved by functionaries, and delivered to a lower rank.

He probably ordered it months ago, since it takes a long time for anything to go through the cogs of russian bureaucracy.

Anyway those who received and handled his orders can be used as witnesses in a show trial to execute Putin, so they will be executed too.

[oldtimer]

Anyway those who received and handled his orders can be used as witnesses in a show trial to execute Putin, so they will be executed too.

A show trial to execute Putin? If some Kremlin guys decide to kill him, they will do it without any trial, in secret, otherwise Putin's zombies will gnaw them to the bone before they have time to say "trial".

Even Navalny had a complex show trial and has not been executed, yet.

Which raises the question, why did they try to kill Navalny when he was out of Russia but not when he is in Russia ?