Is “Zionist” an antisemitic dog whistle at this point?

[Flyersfan232]

yes and no

[Pheurton Skeurto]

The only people who frequently used the term "zionist" as a pejorative before October 7th were out-and-out nazis. Of course there's nuance to some of the positions taken regarding this conflict, but my eyes narrow when I read someone use that term no matter what. It's not inherently a dogwhistle, but there are too many instances of people using it as a dogwhistle to not be suspicious.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I increasingly think this term doesn’t make any sense post 1948. Asking ‘are you pro or anti Zionist’ is kind of like asking if you’re for or against the Risorgimento, it’s not a relevant question in the modern world

The reason is that Middle Eastern countries that refuse to recognize Israel would commonly refer to it as something like "the Zionist entity" post-1948, the implication is that it wasn't a country but some sort of occupation of the land, of course these countries didn't care about the Palestinians either and in fact treated Palestinian refugees just as bad as Israel did. But they were the only ones using it from 1948 until about the 80s when the far-right and far-left realized they could use the term as a fig leaf to argue they're not anti-Semitic when saying things like "Zionists control the media", "Zionists control banking and the world economy", referring to the US as a "Zionist Occupied Government", etc.

[HisGrace]

I would actually say no because Zionism is a political ideology a person can have or not. We should still call it one though just to troll the far left though and throw their own rhetoric in their face.

[SnowLabrador]

No.

[Fmr. Gov. NickG]

I have no idea what "Zionist" is even supposed to mean. Like, I don't even know if I'm a "Zionist" myself based on the competing explanations I've heard.

[Fmr. Gov. NickG]

I have no idea what "Zionist" is even supposed to mean. Like, I don't even know if I'm a "Zionist" myself based on the competing explanations I've heard.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Is “Hamas supporter” an Islamophobic one?

[HisGrace]

Is “Hamas supporter” an Islamophobic one?

Considering most Hamas supporters in the US are pasty white non Muslim kids I would say no.

[DaleCooper]

Yes, very close to 100% of the time. Any use of the word Zionist when discussing current events is actually a pretty good sign that the person is best ignored.

[Born to Slay. Forced to Work.]

Yes, very close to 100% of the time. Any use of the word Zionist when discussing current events is actually a pretty good sign that the person is best ignored.

I wouldn’t go that far. There are many parties in Israel who describe themselves as zionists.

[LBJer]

I mean, 94% of Jews are Zionists.

Gross exaggeration.

[Never Made it to Graceland]

What else are we supposed to call them, pray tell?

Israeli Nationalists more or less means the same but has less baggage

Zionism existed well before the State and Israel and "Israelis" existed.

If I started writing “Palestinians” like this I'd probably get a 90 day temp ban

Fuzzy Bear does this all the time and has never been sanctioned afaik.

[redjohn]

My God, Palestinians are being massacred en masse and tens of thousands of civilians are being written off as collateral. Back to reality, people - actions over words. Look at what Israel has done, look at who they've killed and how they've responded to criticism. Which word would you prefer is used to refer to uncritical supporters of Israel? Is there a word that can be used without legitimate criticism being painted as anti-semitic?

"Zioinist" has been the least offensive way of referring to those who uncritically support the Israeli state. This grouping includes fanatical Christians, obviously a good number of Jews, and a variety of other groups. Focus from those seeking to distract or obscure Israeli war crimes is on words, because they have very few actual actions to point at.

[Antonio the Sixth]

My God, Palestinians are being massacred en masse and tens of thousands of civilians are being written off as collateral. Back to reality, people - actions over words. Look at what Israel has done, look at who they've killed and how they've responded to criticism. Which word would you prefer is used to refer to uncritical supporters of Israel? Is there a word that can be used without legitimate criticism being painted as anti-semitic?

"Zioinist" has been the least offensive way of referring to those who uncritically support the Israeli state. This grouping includes fanatical Christians, obviously a good number of Jews, and a variety of other groups. Focus from those seeking to distract or obscure Israeli war crimes is on words, because they have very few actual actions to point at.

You can just say "pro-Israel"? I know it's 4 syllables instead of 3, but not bringing in a historical movement that has very little to do with the current conflict and that's widely used as a Trojan horse for antisemites to get normies on board seems like it justifies the very slight inconvenience.

[💥💥 brandon bro (he/him/his)]

This is really an interesting case of concept creep in social justice that has occurred in the last decade.

Under the definition I am most comfortable with, I'd say no because the majority of people who are using this term have no antisemitic intent.

But under the expanded definitions of racism we've seen where many insist that intent doesn't matter, it undeniably is in its current usage.

Of course, there is a lot of overlap between people who insist that racism/sexism does not require intent and those who insist that usage of "zionist" in the context of the Gaza war is not antisemitic.

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

My God, Palestinians are being massacred en masse and tens of thousands of civilians are being written off as collateral. Back to reality, people - actions over words. Look at what Israel has done, look at who they've killed and how they've responded to criticism. Which word would you prefer is used to refer to uncritical supporters of Israel? Is there a word that can be used without legitimate criticism being painted as anti-semitic?

"Zioinist" has been the least offensive way of referring to those who uncritically support the Israeli state. This grouping includes fanatical Christians, obviously a good number of Jews, and a variety of other groups. Focus from those seeking to distract or obscure Israeli war crimes is on words, because they have very few actual actions to point at.

You can just say "pro-Israel"? I know it's 4 syllables instead of 3, but not bringing in a historical movement that has very little to do with the current conflict and that's widely used as a Trojan horse for antisemites to get normies on board seems like it justifies the very slight inconvenience.

For what it's worth, if you look at any of my posts, this is what I do for exactly that reason, and to avoid any connotation of anti-semitism, because it does exist, especially amongst people who want to bark about 'Zionism' without actually having any concept of what it is beyond 'Jews' which is certainly too many people.

Still think Redjohn's larger point stands though, especially with the most odious Zionists actually not even being Jewish people in my opinion but rather Christian zionists / evangelicals.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

My God, Palestinians are being massacred en masse and tens of thousands of civilians are being written off as collateral. Back to reality, people - actions over words. Look at what Israel has done, look at who they've killed and how they've responded to criticism. Which word would you prefer is used to refer to uncritical supporters of Israel? Is there a word that can be used without legitimate criticism being painted as anti-semitic?

"Zioinist" has been the least offensive way of referring to those who uncritically support the Israeli state. This grouping includes fanatical Christians, obviously a good number of Jews, and a variety of other groups. Focus from those seeking to distract or obscure Israeli war crimes is on words, because they have very few actual actions to point at.

You can just say "pro-Israel"? I know it's 4 syllables instead of 3, but not bringing in a historical movement that has very little to do with the current conflict and that's widely used as a Trojan horse for antisemites to get normies on board seems like it justifies the very slight inconvenience.

For what it's worth, if you look at any of my posts, this is what I do for exactly that reason, and to avoid any connotation of anti-semitism, because it does exist, especially amongst people who want to bark about 'Zionism' without actually having any concept of what it is beyond 'Jews' which is certainly too many people.

Still think Redjohn's larger point stands though, especially with the most odious Zionists actually not even being Jewish people in my opinion but rather Christian zionists / evangelicals.

Antisemitic Zionists like John Hagee are the worst.

[Antonio the Sixth]

My God, Palestinians are being massacred en masse and tens of thousands of civilians are being written off as collateral. Back to reality, people - actions over words. Look at what Israel has done, look at who they've killed and how they've responded to criticism. Which word would you prefer is used to refer to uncritical supporters of Israel? Is there a word that can be used without legitimate criticism being painted as anti-semitic?

"Zioinist" has been the least offensive way of referring to those who uncritically support the Israeli state. This grouping includes fanatical Christians, obviously a good number of Jews, and a variety of other groups. Focus from those seeking to distract or obscure Israeli war crimes is on words, because they have very few actual actions to point at.

You can just say "pro-Israel"? I know it's 4 syllables instead of 3, but not bringing in a historical movement that has very little to do with the current conflict and that's widely used as a Trojan horse for antisemites to get normies on board seems like it justifies the very slight inconvenience.

For what it's worth, if you look at any of my posts, this is what I do for exactly that reason, and to avoid any connotation of anti-semitism, because it does exist, especially amongst people who want to bark about 'Zionism' without actually having any concept of what it is beyond 'Jews' which is certainly too many people.

Still think Redjohn's larger point stands though, especially with the most odious Zionists actually not even being Jewish people in my opinion but rather Christian zionists / evangelicals.

tbh I think "Christian Zionists" are abusively appropriating the label. First of all I'm not sure anyone who isn't Jewish has any business calling themselves Zionist at all, although that's a complex discussion to have and I don't want to make too much of this particular point. But also, they quite simply don't meaningfully share any values with the historical Zionist movement (which was largely secular and liberal, and to the extent that it was religious it was so in opposition to Christianity) beyond supporting Israel's continued existence. I don't feel like that's enough for the label to apply.

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

My God, Palestinians are being massacred en masse and tens of thousands of civilians are being written off as collateral. Back to reality, people - actions over words. Look at what Israel has done, look at who they've killed and how they've responded to criticism. Which word would you prefer is used to refer to uncritical supporters of Israel? Is there a word that can be used without legitimate criticism being painted as anti-semitic?

"Zioinist" has been the least offensive way of referring to those who uncritically support the Israeli state. This grouping includes fanatical Christians, obviously a good number of Jews, and a variety of other groups. Focus from those seeking to distract or obscure Israeli war crimes is on words, because they have very few actual actions to point at.

You can just say "pro-Israel"? I know it's 4 syllables instead of 3, but not bringing in a historical movement that has very little to do with the current conflict and that's widely used as a Trojan horse for antisemites to get normies on board seems like it justifies the very slight inconvenience.

For what it's worth, if you look at any of my posts, this is what I do for exactly that reason, and to avoid any connotation of anti-semitism, because it does exist, especially amongst people who want to bark about 'Zionism' without actually having any concept of what it is beyond 'Jews' which is certainly too many people.

Still think Redjohn's larger point stands though, especially with the most odious Zionists actually not even being Jewish people in my opinion but rather Christian zionists / evangelicals.

tbh I think "Christian Zionists" are abusively appropriating the label. First of all I'm not sure anyone who isn't Jewish has any business calling themselves Zionist at all, although that's a complex discussion to have and I don't want to make too much of this particular point. But also, they quite simply don't meaningfully share any values with the historical Zionist movement (which was largely secular and liberal, and to the extent that it was religious it was so in opposition to Christianity) beyond supporting Israel's continued existence. I don't feel like that's enough for the label to apply.

I mean, this is all fine and I'm likely to agree with you but that certainly doesn't stop ardent zionists from accepting the help, support and fanaticism of 'Christian zionists', who especially in the West are often the loudest part of loud zionist supporters / coalitions and possibly even numerically at least a decent plurality, especially here (perhaps much more-so than even other Western places, tbf) in my country.

Note that I am using 'Zionist' more broadly in this thread for the sake of simplicity, too. Since it's the point of debate.