American Women are having more Abortions

[jojoju1998]

Ironically, or maybe not ironically, the US has a higher abortion rate than many European Countries ( where abortion is  fully legalized ). Hmm, I wonder why.

[jojoju1998]

Cardinal Joseph Bernardin who was the Archbishop of Chicago developed a concept known as the seamless garment where abortion, war, poverty, gun violence, Euthnasia, are all tied together. Pro life from conception to natural death.

Conservative Catholics balked at it because it mean that abortion was not the top issue ( because thomist natural law makes abortion a itrinsic evil ).

[jojoju1998]

Frank, are you just trying to “pwn teh cons”?

Absolutely not.

I'm not sure what I can say without it being considered personal, or a 'personal attack.' I normally don't care about anybody here because what matters to me is the ideas, not the personalities. However,

1.In terms of not being original: I doubt that DT is saying anything that has not been said by others previously, even if he is not quoting. In fact, claiming (falsely) that a non viable fetus is the equivalent of a human life would carry no weight if it were an original argument of DT's. If one private individual held that view alone, it would be of no significance.  I quoted that rather than write my own post because it was easier.

2.More importantly, I think it does get to the heart of the abortion issue, which I regard as the ultimate in virtue signalling, for the reasons pointed out in that quote: it allows the individual to feel morally superior to others (or at least fine with themselves morally) while making absolutely no sacrifice or having any cost to themselves.  

3.So, this is the personal part, in that in another thread DT wrote this:

After two years of covid hysteria, it's very obvious who the public health bureaucrats at the CDC are in business for.  Normal people do not act, think or talk like this.      

1 million deaths from Covid in the United States in two years is hysteria?  I think it is absolutely fair to question the committment a person has to actual human life when they minimize 1 million deaths as 'hysteria.'      

The difference: moralizing about other people having abortion is easy, actually doing something in a time of pandemic is not as easy (at least it wasn't to Americans.)

On the contrary, it could just as easily be said that advocating for prenatal children is the most thankless job there is.  If we choose to ignore the unborn, they literally go away.  They're the only group completely unable to ever speak for themselves.  Advocating for the unborn is worth it if you see them as the most vulnerable members of our society.

Secondly, there is nothing more "sacrificial" about advocating for the poor, sick, homeless, etc. if your only proposed solution for them is more taxes on the rich.  Christians get credit for running a parallel cradle-to-grave welfare state for orphans, widows, prisoners, immigrants, shut-ins, etc. that has existed for centuries, with much more effect and long before any government ever got around to it.

The parroted quote relies on so many ungracious assumptions about pro-life Christians that it cannot be considered anything other than bait to dangle in front of online slacktivists like yourself, itching to get an "own" in on people they already decided to hate a long time ago.  I'll stand by my characterization of you.  

Yes, and everything you write here confirms to me that you need to believe and believe you are, morally superior to other people, precisely because you are anti-abortion.

1.In addition to what you wrote here, you told another person in this thread to 'grow up' and said that women who have abortions have committed a 'personal and moral failure.'

I don't know if that's hate or anger from you, but you are certainly confirming to me that your primary or even sole interest in abortion is to claim to yourself and others that you are a 'moral' person and that you are morally superior to other people. Of course, I have no way of knowing what else you might be doing to reduce unwanted pregnancies and nor do I know if you hold yourself to such a similar high standard regarding 'moral failures' though your comment referring to Covid as 'a hysteria' certainly suggests to me you don't.

2.Most countries that have legal abortion and anything approaching a sucessful welfare state have higher taxes in general, not just on the wealthy. Whether Americans would be open to that or not, I have no idea.  Certainly seemingly the vast majority of people who laughingly claim to be 'pro-life' because they are anti abortion oppose increasing welfare spending or raising taxes.

3.Certainly Christian, religious in general and other private welfare charities have an important role to play in society, but to claim they have had 'much more effect' than government welfare, as imperfect as that is, is a laughable claim that suggests to me you've been (literally) brainwashed by your church.

It was the limits to the effectiveness of private charity that led many religious organizations and individuals to call for government involvement.  Charles Dickens, who certainly was a Christian himself https://www.americamagazine.org/issue/681/bookings/no-scrooge-he wrote A Christmas Carol and its sequels precisely to point out the need for government involvement in welfare.

I think it’s more of the Calvinist work ethic and puritan aspect that leads conservatives in the US to reject government aid.

The more catholic/Lutheran influence in Europe however led governments in the opposite direction. It was devout Christians, Anglicans in the UK who pushed for social and economic reforms in that country.

[jojoju1998]

Frank, are you just trying to “pwn teh cons”?

Absolutely not.

I'm not sure what I can say without it being considered personal, or a 'personal attack.' I normally don't care about anybody here because what matters to me is the ideas, not the personalities. However,

1.In terms of not being original: I doubt that DT is saying anything that has not been said by others previously, even if he is not quoting. In fact, claiming (falsely) that a non viable fetus is the equivalent of a human life would carry no weight if it were an original argument of DT's. If one private individual held that view alone, it would be of no significance.  I quoted that rather than write my own post because it was easier.

2.More importantly, I think it does get to the heart of the abortion issue, which I regard as the ultimate in virtue signalling, for the reasons pointed out in that quote: it allows the individual to feel morally superior to others (or at least fine with themselves morally) while making absolutely no sacrifice or having any cost to themselves. 

3.So, this is the personal part, in that in another thread DT wrote this:

After two years of covid hysteria, it's very obvious who the public health bureaucrats at the CDC are in business for.  Normal people do not act, think or talk like this.       

1 million deaths from Covid in the United States in two years is hysteria?  I think it is absolutely fair to question the committment a person has to actual human life when they minimize 1 million deaths as 'hysteria.'     

The difference: moralizing about other people having abortion is easy, actually doing something in a time of pandemic is not as easy (at least it wasn't to Americans.)

On the contrary, it could just as easily be said that advocating for prenatal children is the most thankless job there is.  If we choose to ignore the unborn, they literally go away.  They're the only group completely unable to ever speak for themselves.  Advocating for the unborn is worth it if you see them as the most vulnerable members of our society.

Secondly, there is nothing more "sacrificial" about advocating for the poor, sick, homeless, etc. if your only proposed solution for them is more taxes on the rich.  Christians get credit for running a parallel cradle-to-grave welfare state for orphans, widows, prisoners, immigrants, shut-ins, etc. that has existed for centuries, with much more effect and long before any government ever got around to it.

The parroted quote relies on so many ungracious assumptions about pro-life Christians that it cannot be considered anything other than bait to dangle in front of online slacktivists like yourself, itching to get an "own" in on people they already decided to hate a long time ago.  I'll stand by my characterization of you. 

Yes, and everything you write here confirms to me that you need to believe and believe you are, morally superior to other people, precisely because you are anti-abortion.

1.In addition to what you wrote here, you told another person in this thread to 'grow up' and said that women who have abortions have committed a 'personal and moral failure.'

I don't know if that's hate or anger from you, but you are certainly confirming to me that your primary or even sole interest in abortion is to claim to yourself and others that you are a 'moral' person and that you are morally superior to other people. Of course, I have no way of knowing what else you might be doing to reduce unwanted pregnancies and nor do I know if you hold yourself to such a similar high standard regarding 'moral failures' though your comment referring to Covid as 'a hysteria' certainly suggests to me you don't.

2.Most countries that have legal abortion and anything approaching a sucessful welfare state have higher taxes in general, not just on the wealthy. Whether Americans would be open to that or not, I have no idea.  Certainly seemingly the vast majority of people who laughingly claim to be 'pro-life' because they are anti abortion oppose increasing welfare spending or raising taxes.

3.Certainly Christian, religious in general and other private welfare charities have an important role to play in society, but to claim they have had 'much more effect' than government welfare, as imperfect as that is, is a laughable claim that suggests to me you've been (literally) brainwashed by your church.

It was the limits to the effectiveness of private charity that led many religious organizations and individuals to call for government involvement.  Charles Dickens, who certainly was a Christian himself https://www.americamagazine.org/issue/681/bookings/no-scrooge-he wrote A Christmas Carol and its sequels precisely to point out the need for government involvement in welfare.

Moralizing is an inherent aspect of the abortion debate.  You cannot come to a serious assessment of the "pro-life" or "pro-choice" arguments without an evaluative moral framework to weigh the sanctity of life, rights of women, etc.  This issue is controversial for a reason.

I believe women should have access to abortion as a matter of practicality.  I believe the quality of life is made better for many women because of abortion; in that sense, I'm not a subscriber to the "sanctity of life" ethic (which I find way too aesthetically Catholic to ever fully embrace, anyway.)

What I don't believe is that we should normalize or celebrate abortion, which is something Democrats have been complicit in for the past several years as I alluded to earlier.  We cannot sugarcoat what abortion is:  the termination of a human life.  For this reason, abortion is an issue that must be fraught with moral consequence. 

You rushed to throw out a screen grab of some reddit post as a "gotcha" rather than contemplate and engage my position.  Doing the latter would have been much more edifying.

Would you agree with Cardinal Bernadin’s seamless garment approach ?

[jojoju1998]

Would you agree with Cardinal Bernadin’s seamless garment approach ?

In general, yes. Ideally none of those things would occur. But, in what sense is he arguing these things?  Is he claiming they all lead to a loss of respect for life?

I'm more of a practical person, not some abstract intellectual. Some people argue that the mass shootings in the U.S are a result of a 'culture of celebration of death' in the United States due to such things as abortion and guns.

I'll go so far as to believe that based on its history, the U.S does have a culture of violence, but beyond that, I have no idea. There are 330 million Americans in the United States and hundreds of cities, how should I know what the 'U.S culture' is or what effects it on any kind of broad sociological level.  All I know is that, in general, when there are more guns and easy access to these guns, it makes sense to me there are going to be more deaths.  

When it comes to the rest, I prefer to argue them on a practical case by case basis, and I'm not an absolutist on any of those things.

I appreciate there are sociologists and others who have studied where mass societies are more likely to succeed based on the cultural climate, but I'm not familiar with much of that research.

His argument was that abortion, Euthnasia, War, the death penalty are all life issues, and elevating one over another would go against catholic social teaching.

[jojoju1998]

To get back on-topic, more abortions should be best placed in the context of the simultaneous rise in "deaths of despair" and overall shorter life expectancy.

The demographic trajectory of 2020s America looks more and more like the post-Soviet bloc of the 1990s with every new study/report.  Eerie stuff. 

And with Ironcially, a hyper vocal Catholic Church.

[jojoju1998]

It would be ironic if abortions went up if Roe is repealed.