Maine's Question 1

[Joe Biden 2020]

I for one am very pleased with the result making Tuesday a good day for the Conservative Movement.  We've got a Bible-believing governor in Virginia, NJ I'm not so sure about, and we have a pro-lifer in upstate New York.  Then, the biblical definition of marriage is restored in Maine.

[Joe Biden 2020]

1 No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry
   whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods,
   nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief.

oh, I am not going to stop you from doing what you what.  go ahead and marry ten men...just don't ask me to recognize it

No one cares if YOU recognize it or not.  Or even LIKE it.

What's important is that the LAW recognizes it.  You know, the simple dignity of being able to pass on property without it being unfairly taxed by the government.  Or being able to visit someone in the hospital.

I don't understand why people are so fervently opposed to THAT, that they don't even care about pretending it's about the institution of marriage and instead fight against any sort of recognition, any sort of "favor."

That's precisely why I support civil unions by-and-large, because every person has a right to be cared for and loved and a right to care and love no matter their sexual orientation.  Just because I may not agree with their choice doesn't mean they're any less entitled to the same rights as I do.

As for same-sex marriage, what I said in a post earlier in this thread needs clarification.  I don't support it per se, but I feel I don't have a right to discriminate against it with the "Bible" excuse, because we, as Christians, haven't exactly lived up to what the Bible also says about marriage, and I'm talking about DIVORCE.  Its a matter of trying to take the plank out of your eye when i have a log in mine.  So, I don't like gay marriage, and I probably never will, but one thing I have always believed when I point a finger at my good friend, I have three fingers pointing right back at me.  If I were only to open those three fingers and extend the hand of good fellowship and aide to my brothers and sisters.  I guess what I'm trying to get at is I believe gay marriage is wrong, but divorce is equally as wrong, so until we, as Christians, get that plank called divorce out of our eye, we can't see clearly to erradicate gay marriage from the global discussion.

[Joe Biden 2020]

1 No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry
   whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods,
   nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief.

oh, I am not going to stop you from doing what you what.  go ahead and marry ten men...just don't ask me to recognize it

No one cares if YOU recognize it or not.  Or even LIKE it.

What's important is that the LAW recognizes it.  You know, the simple dignity of being able to pass on property without it being unfairly taxed by the government.  Or being able to visit someone in the hospital.

I don't understand why people are so fervently opposed to THAT, that they don't even care about pretending it's about the institution of marriage and instead fight against any sort of recognition, any sort of "favor."

That's precisely why I support civil unions by-and-large, because every person has a right to be cared for and loved and a right to care and love no matter their sexual orientation.  Just because I may not agree with their choice doesn't mean they're any less entitled to the same rights as I do.

As for same-sex marriage, what I said in a post earlier in this thread needs clarification.  I don't support it per se, but I feel I don't have a right to discriminate against it with the "Bible" excuse, because we, as Christians, haven't exactly lived up to what the Bible also says about marriage, and I'm talking about DIVORCE.  Its a matter of trying to take the plank out of your eye when i have a log in mine.  So, I don't like gay marriage, and I probably never will, but one thing I have always believed when I point a finger at my good friend, I have three fingers pointing right back at me.  If I were only to open those three fingers and extend the hand of good fellowship and aide to my brothers and sisters.  I guess what I'm trying to get at is I believe gay marriage is wrong, but divorce is equally as wrong, so until we, as Christians, get that plank called divorce out of our eye, we can't see clearly to erradicate gay marriage from the global discussion.

That's a very thoughtful post.

One question I still have though: If you can accept the arguments in favor of civil unions, and you clearly explained your reasoning for that, how can you not support marriage?

Basically, do you believe in the seperation of church and state? If yes, I challenge you to find one argument against full state recognition of marriage. The state cannot recognize religious arguments, and if it does, it is clearly discriminating against people who hold different religious beliefs or none at all.

Any church should be able to marry whoever they want, based on whatever crazy rules they want. That's their business, and they're free to do it.

But the state has no business in playing that game, the state is there to provide worldy representation in a fair and objective manner. Discrminating against two consenting adults that happen to be of the same sex simply isn't acceptable.

Well, remember what I said a long time ago, I'm warming to it, it may take some time for me to get "used" to it.  I do believe in SC&S, and I'm warming to it.  Those are just my Oklahoma roots talking.  I do have my own mind on a lot of things and this is becoming one of them.

[Joe Biden 2020]

http://publicpolicypolling.blogspot.com/2009/11/marriage-still-close-in-maine.html

These aren't exit polls, but they are polls taken on Monday, the eve of the elections and it shows that Senior Citizens supported in 59-40 and those under 30 opposed it only 51-48 which is a big advantage for the supporters.

[Joe Biden 2020]

When the biggest university campus in Maine voted 81% No and with other campuses with similar margins, I can put my hand in fire that the young vote wasn't 51-48.

I can agree with that, and like i said these were basically "entrance" polls rather than exit polls.

[Joe Biden 2020]

But what percentage of voters were young vs. old? Especially in comparison to 2008.

I guess any demographics will be tough to find, since it seems the only time questions are examined closer are when there are actual candidate races above them in the same state/district.  At least that's what I gather.

[Joe Biden 2020]

You'd be lucky if you were half the man JS is, jmfcst.

Please don't mock jmfcst for standing up for the truth that is the Bible that is God's Word.

[Joe Biden 2020]

You'd be lucky if you were half the man JS is, jmfcst.

Please don't mock jmfcst for standing up for the truth that is the Bible that is God's Word.

Bible Basher.

No, we're just Bible believers, pure and simple.

[Joe Biden 2020]

You'd be lucky if you were half the man JS is, jmfcst.

Please don't mock jmfcst for standing up for the truth that is the Bible that is God's Word.

1.) matter of opinion
2.) irrelevant to the discussion about gay marriage

Fair enough, let me rephrase the response, don't mock him for standing up for what he believes in or for what he believes in.

He's definitely more conservative than I am, but I can see where he's coming from because I was there in the middle of this decade, but what I said earlier in this thread is what I believe.

[Joe Biden 2020]

You'd be lucky if you were half the man JS is, jmfcst.

Please don't mock jmfcst for standing up for the truth that is the Bible that is God's Word.

I'm not mocking him, Bushie, I'm saying his criticism of JS is a crock of sh**t.

And, i agree with you that his criticism of JS is not what I know JS to be.  I just didn't like you saying he wasn't even "half the man" JS is.