Should John Muhammad be executed?

[Joe Republic]

No.  It's concerning that he has only received seven years of punishment for killing ten people.  Furthermore, it's also concerning that so many people support the death penalty because they believe that his punishment will somehow continue after he dies; i.e. that the phrase "burn in hell" is intended literally. 

[Joe Republic]

No.  It's concerning that he has only received seven years of punishment for killing ten people.  Furthermore, it's also concerning that so many people support the death penalty because they believe that his punishment will somehow continue after he dies; i.e. that the phrase "burn in hell" is intended literally. 

Yeah, we're the same ilk who do hokus pokus things like offer Inks our prayers for his health......we're not of the congnoscenti like you and many others here. 

Apples and oranges.  Telling somebody that you're praying for them at least lets them know that you care about them and that you hope for the best.  Even though they're essentially just powerless words, it still helps them feel better psychologically.

But forcing the death of somebody because of a belief that it's only the start of their punishment is to rob everybody else of the chance to punish them sufficiently, and essentially lets them off the hook.

This is a far better solution for a multiple murderer:

He should he held in small cell until the rest of his miserable life. That's much worse than injection.

[Joe Republic]

Apples and oranges.  Telling somebody that you're praying for them at least lets them know that you care about them and that you hope for the best.  Even though they're essentially just powerless words, it still helps them feel better psychologically.

No Joe, you were making a poke at religion since I put "burn in hell" as an option....which is fine, but it's hardly apples and oranges when I call you on it.

I note that you didn't really respond to any of my points, then.  Plus, I don't consider myself to me making fun of religion; I'm making a serious point as somebody who is frankly pissed off that much of the popular support for the death penalty is grounded on a belief that it is somehow only the beginning of somebody's punishment.  They're essentially supporting a murderer of ten people to be let off the hook after only seven years in jail.

[Joe Republic]

While I accept your point about it being the start of someone's punishment, I don't think the poll question was actually a religious option as much of a "take that, you bastard" comment.  But that's just my view on it.

Oh, I certainly have no problem with the metaphorical sentiment.  I know that in a lot of cases, telling someone to "go to hell" is not intended literally, just like calling somebody a "bastard" or a "motherfu[i[/i]cker" is not meant to imply that they were actually born out of wedlock or like to copulate with their own mother. 

My gripe is merely with those whose religious beliefs govern their support for the death penalty, at the detriment of others who want to see murderers actually punished sufficiently.  As I've indicated, I consider execution to be tantamount to letting them off the hook.

[Joe Republic]

Thanks for pointing out your points, Joe, because I seriously couldn't make out the point....but ok, I'll address it..........I don't think he's getting off the hook at all.......k?

There's really no need for the sarcasm, but thank you anyway for once again falling onto the side of those whose views are governed by their own irrationality.  I truly enjoy discussing these issues.

[Joe Republic]

I wasn't being sarcastic and I'm not looking for an argument per se.......the issue of "what happens next" is not supported by facts....so we're all just guessing.   As to him only being in jail for 7 years, have no fear, the world will have one less monster in it after tonight.....whether that's enough is for each of us to decide and disagreements on this will go on til the end of time.  If you wish to label me irrational, ok by me.

Fair enough.  Indeed, I can certainly see arguments in favor of the death penalty that aren't grounded in religious belief; e.g. the cost to the state of executing them is far less than keeping them imprisoned for years on end.  But personally I think it's a necessary expense, as keeping them miserable for many years is a justified punishment for murder than ending their misery after only a few short years.

[Joe Republic]

My gripe is merely with those whose religious beliefs govern their support for the death penalty, at the detriment of others who want to see murderers actually punished sufficiently.  As I've indicated, I consider execution to be tantamount to letting them off the hook.

As I suggested earlier, that's an odd way of viewing it: "Most people, if forced to pick, would prefer imprisonment even to mere extinction."

Which people?  Ordinary citizens, or convicted murderers?

If the former, then I'm glad you feel that I'm in the majority opinion.  If the latter, then it's most likely either due to their own fears of some kind of supernatural punishment after their execution, or even more likely that by being kept alive they at least have some hope of being released.

[Joe Republic]

I meant the average person, though of course with respect to his own fate—not that of Muhammad or some other convict. I assume that the average murderer has the same attitude. Few instincts are as powerful as the one that urges a person to preserve his life.

I doubt whether many people on death row entertain serious hope of ever being released. Some might fear the wrath of God, but is there any evidence that a substantial number do? (I particularly doubt that this man does.) The most natural inference is that they prefer life in a cell to no life at all.

But even granting your assumption, death doesn't amount to being "let off the hook." If he prefers life to death on either of those grounds, he nonetheless prefers life to death; and the prospect of losing it can only grieve him greatly.

I think the objective is for incarceration for serious offences to be considered a fate worse than death; something that I realize is not exactly accurate in today's society.  My assertion that execution is to let them off the hook is to imply that we are removing the chance to make them really suffer for their crimes.

The fact that most people instinctively prefer life over death is merely a convenient factor in this goal.  Just because they want to live doesn't mean I would therefore deprive them of it simply out of spite.  There are multiple ways to help them regret that instinct.  

[Joe Republic]

Anything who thinks prison can't be a fate worse than death ought to read up on ADX Florence.

That's exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about.  Anybody convicted of murder should be treated the same way as those inmates.  That's far more of a punishment than just simply killing them and having done with it.

[Joe Republic]

No.  It's concerning that he has only received seven years of punishment for killing ten people.  Furthermore, it's also concerning that so many people support the death penalty because they believe that his punishment will somehow continue after he dies; i.e. that the phrase "burn in hell" is intended literally. 

I never bought this argument. If he hasn't killed himself, he obviously doesn't see it as being let off the hook.

That's often because the criminal himself buys into the "afterlife" concept.  My point remains that he only received seven years of punishment for murdering ten people.  That is not justice.

Anyway, it's usually harder to kill yourself in prison than you think.  What's more, keeping yourself alive for as long as possible extends the possibility that you'll somehow be paroled eventually.

[Joe Republic]

Even if that were true, that's pretty disturbing.  Incarceration for serious offenses needs to be so awful that death would be seen as a relief, and would then be denied to them.

[Joe Republic]

I think you're putting a little too much faith in the strength of that particular human instinct, Gustaf.  But then it's also fair to say that we're both being subjective here, and thus this is a rather pointless aspect to focus on.

All I am saying is that people who argue that the death penalty is the worst form of punishment available are truly missing the bigger picture.

[Joe Republic]

All I am saying is that people who argue that the death penalty is the worst form of punishment available are truly missing the bigger picture.

Well, the bigger picture is to ask people who are about to commit a crime if they care if the result is the death penalty of life in prison...and I think people who commit such a violent crime to warrant either of those results either (1) think that they won't get caught or (2) are so psychotic they don't think about it at all....and in either case, how harsh the death penalty is or life in prison is does not act as a deterrent. 

I mean, how many people rationally consider the consequences of a murder, while weighing them against the advantages, and decide not to do it? 

Oh I'm fully aware of that.  No matter what kind of punishments people could come up with, violent crime will always exist.  This is why the entire crime and punishment discussion misses the mark so often.