Is pornography moral?

[tik 🪀✨]

I have not read the entirety of this thread. What I can say is that while "Is controversy X moral?" can generate great and interesting discussions, the question itself annoys me to tears - mostly because "moral" is such a loaded word. What is it actually supposed to mean? Good for just society? Good for individuals? Good for both? Proper and true and wholesome universally? I have no idea, it wasn't defined. It's excruciating. Nevertheless that poorly defined term then opens a window for people more intelligent than me to argue. So.. hurray?

To answer the question without the loaded word - is porn an overall good thing to flourish in a society? Undoubtedly to me, the good that it provides outweighs the bad because its unrealistic and often disgusting theatrics satisfies and satiates biological desires that could drive someone to do coercive, terrible things. It can also never really fill the hole most need to fill for a genuine sexual relationship, so such relationships retain their value most of the time.

And I don't think that porn genuinely degrades real relationships in a similar way that I don't think violent media encourages real violence. And based on the fact that humanity can find an excuse to masturbate to just about anything, as long as everyone involved doesn't mind it doesn't bother me. I suppose I should find something to be outraged about.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Tik: The problem with the idea that it satiates desires that would otherwise come out in other ways is that a lot of people argue, not entirely without empirical evidence (yes, I am hedging here, only because I don't have the studies that support this view in front of me right now and I'm heading out to go hiking in a few minutes), that watching a lot of it can also warp attitudes or exacerbate already unhealthy attitudes about sex and about women and about the sorts of things that it shows--in other words that it creates or at least can in some cases create the sort of desires that one might think it would satisfy.

No, thanks.

無精者～

[opebo]

Good lord, Nathan, who are you to decide what are 'healthy attitudes' about sex?

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Good lord, Nathan, who are you to decide what are 'healthy attitudes' about sex?

As much of anybody as you are, I should think, unless you assume that my beliefs and preferences make me or others more miserable than yours make you or others, which I think I would know significantly more about than you would, don't you agree?

Besides, I know what healthy and unhealthy attitudes about other people, as people, in general, are, and how one should think of and treat others. Women, even actual or intended sex partners, count as people for purposes of moral consideration--shocking to you, I'd imagine, but I believe pretty strongly that that's the case.

[Oakvale]

"Don't delude yourself that it's all right"? That's awfully repressive.

Repressed?!  You think people who eschew porn and um, have sex with an actual woman are repressed?  I need an Atlas dictionary.  I just came from a thread where I got called "elitist" for wearing $30 khakis to have breakfast in a restaurant instead of showing up in my pajamas.

No. What. My point was that thinking that people should feel guilty over completely natural behaviour is awful and repressive. Not that someone with a porn addiction or whatever shouldn't leave the house. If you're avoiding human contact and substituting it with porn you should probably take a look at your situation, but all things in moderation and so on.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Can't we get a f-cking proper and mature discussion of sex as a thing that people do on this forum?

[Peter the Lefty]

Hell yeah, it's moral. 

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Can't we get a f-cking proper and mature discussion of sex as a thing that people do on this forum?

A lot of people here only have sex in their minds - and constantly - which, of course, as we know is the wrong place to do it.

But it is the only place to do it. Arousal is product of the mind.  Indeed, it may well explain the origin of foot fetishism.  If you've ever looked at an unbowdlerized cortical homunculus of the sensory system, you'll see that the portion of the brain that receives sensory information from the genitals is next to that of the toes.

[sentinel]

Can't we get a f-cking proper and mature discussion of sex as a thing that people do on this forum?

Some of us do it on this forum. Not so sure about others...

[Horus]

I wouldn't use the term "moral" but it is rightfully tolerated so more moral than immoral.

[Redalgo]

Abnormal indeed. It appears the majority of the forum uses consent as the sole determinant of sexual morality. I wish lefties would reject consent based morality in sex, just like they reject the consent based morality that the libertarians use in economics.

It really does boil down to differences in perception about moral dilemmas. To put it rather simply, for someone like me the prospect of suffering or being cheated is the negative motivational stick while the carrot is all about pleasure and happiness. Consent is basically an assurance that folks involved in a sexual act are not being harmed or cheated in a way they object to. There are still some moral concerns to sort out of course when it comes to pornography and prostitution, but I honestly think they have more to do with concerns regarding patriarchal society and capitalism more than they do anything specifically pertaining to sexual acts.

Though it may come as a surprise to you, I also consider consent important when it comes to being governed (e.g. paying taxes, adhering to the law, having ones rights upheld by state). To that effect I do not reject consent as an important moral consideration in economics either so much as I interpret the form consent should take a bit differently, I guess?

Loyalty to ones own people, staying pure from contamination by disgusting things, and respecting authority figures in acceptance of some people being superior or inferior to others are generally not very leftist (nor are they very libertarian) things for one to incorporate into their interpretations of what is good or bad. The biggest difference between leftists and libertarians when it comes to consent is that the former care enough about whether the consent is informed and non-coerced to put lots of regulations in place and compromise on private property rights, as opposed to being mostly content with said property rights, private contracts, and lawsuits.

To offer an example, I consider prostitution and pornography immoral if the workers involved are forced to do it out of financial necessity, and immoral if its depictions or practice are carried out in such a way as to promote abuse. But neither of those problems are inherent to the sex-related sectors of the economy - hence my vote of "both are moral" in lieu of "neither is always moral or immoral" in the poll. In a well-implemented system of communism, socialism, social democracy, or welfare capitalism with a culture mostly free of domination by one sex or the other these trades could be made moral, aside from the dealings of criminal elements.

Edit: Actually, I suppose it is worth noting by"leftist" I mean "left liberal" in this post, given many leftists are communalist, communitarian, and/or heavily influenced by traditional social teachings.

[tik 🪀✨]

Tik: The problem with the idea that it satiates desires that would otherwise come out in other ways is that a lot of people argue, not entirely without empirical evidence (yes, I am hedging here, only because I don't have the studies that support this view in front of me right now and I'm heading out to go hiking in a few minutes), that watching a lot of it can also warp attitudes or exacerbate already unhealthy attitudes about sex and about women and about the sorts of things that it shows--in other words that it creates or at least can in some cases create the sort of desires that one might think it would satisfy.

I'm sympathetic to the line of thinking, and I'm interested in the specifics of the studies you mentioned. Nevertheless, it seems like a slippery slope. Inferring that you dislike pornography for idealistic reasons (my apologies if that's not the case),  even if pornography can bring about desires and attitudes that are, um, disagreeable or otherwise wrong, does that damn the whole thing? I think an absence of pornography would ultimately result in even worse behaviour and attitudes. I like a really solid array of evidence before I condemn something as more often harmful than not. You're the one with the studies, though, I've got nothing but my own inclinations and biases.

[Person Man]

I don't consider it immoral, but calling it moral is also a bit odd...

[Person Man]

Is the use and/or viewing of pornography moral?

Depending on the context, I think it can be argued that pornography is just as immoral as prostitution.  If you believe that prostitution is immoral because it involves society forcing a person to be sexually penetrated to make a living, then how is pornography any different other than that a camera and a multi-billion dollar industry are involved?

Then again, how is society forcing anyone to do anything and taking something from Randian thinking, what is "society"? Unlike them, I think it exists, but think the word is thrown around too much when people aren't even sure of what it is.

And the element of force and general why it is immoral. Is it immoral because it is a form of buggery (as applied to any form of non marital sexual behavior(or in rare cases marital sexual behavior) that is not constitutionally protected) or a form of rape  (someone is made or makes themself dependent on sexual favors to continue to live) or is it something else?

This why I think prostitution should be decriminalized unless there is an element of force involved and if it is to stay illegal, only the pimp and john should be punished. The only other sustainable (where prostitution laws aren't thrown out in 50 years or sooner) would be that constitution is amended or reconstrued by SCOTUS to allow all forms of buggery to be made crimes again (overturn Griswold and Lawrence).

[opebo]

I don't consider it immoral, but calling it moral is also a bit odd...

Rather like saying its moral to chew gum or take a sh**t.

[Person Man]

I don't consider it immoral, but calling it moral is also a bit odd...

Rather like saying its moral to chew gum or take a sh**t.

Reminds me of a show called TV Funhouse I tried to watch when I was a kid. It talked about resisting Satan's urges and waiting until you were ready to take a sh1t.

[afleitch]

Is the use and/or viewing of pornography moral?

Depending on the context, I think it can be argued that pornography is just as immoral as prostitution.  If you believe that prostitution is immoral because it involves society forcing a person to be sexually penetrated to make a living, then how is pornography any different other than that a camera and a multi-billion dollar industry are involved?

Then again, how is society forcing anyone to do anything and taking something from Randian thinking, what is "society"? Unlike them, I think it exists, but think the word is thrown around too much when people aren't even sure of what it is.

And the element of force and general why it is immoral. Is it immoral because it is a form of buggery (as applied to any form of non marital sexual behavior(or in rare cases marital sexual behavior) that is not constitutionally protected) or a form of rape  (someone is made or makes themself dependent on sexual favors to continue to live) or is it something else?

This why I think prostitution should be decriminalized unless there is an element of force involved and if it is to stay illegal, only the pimp and john should be punished. The only other sustainable (where prostitution laws aren't thrown out in 50 years or sooner) would be that constitution is amended or reconstrued by SCOTUS to allow all forms of buggery to be made crimes again (overturn Griswold and Lawrence).

So criminalising gay sex helps in what way exactly? You aren't making much sense.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Srsly... the amount of bloviating handwringing in this thread makes me wanna (in the words of DFB) vom.

Every one of you watches porn.  Quit acting like it's some esoteric moral dilemma.  Chances are most of the porn you watch involves young women (or men) masturbating in front of a webcam or having sex with their significant other.  Not professionally produced pr0ns.

Immoral or moral or right or wrong or whatever... just like it was up to the people in the porno to make the porno (they were compensated for their time and the risk involved)... it is up to me and me along whether I watch it.  Moral or not.

If you want to lie to me and pretend you don't watch porn, I won't believe you and your arguments will just lose any shred of credibility they have.

If you're honest about your porn habits and still think it's immoral on some level even if it's an acceptable immoral behavior.. then that's fine.

[Person Man]

Is the use and/or viewing of pornography moral?

Depending on the context, I think it can be argued that pornography is just as immoral as prostitution.  If you believe that prostitution is immoral because it involves society forcing a person to be sexually penetrated to make a living, then how is pornography any different other than that a camera and a multi-billion dollar industry are involved?

Then again, how is society forcing anyone to do anything and taking something from Randian thinking, what is "society"? Unlike them, I think it exists, but think the word is thrown around too much when people aren't even sure of what it is.

And the element of force and general why it is immoral. Is it immoral because it is a form of buggery (as applied to any form of non marital sexual behavior(or in rare cases marital sexual behavior) that is not constitutionally protected) or a form of rape  (someone is made or makes themself dependent on sexual favors to continue to live) or is it something else?

This why I think prostitution should be decriminalized unless there is an element of force involved and if it is to stay illegal, only the pimp and john should be punished. The only other sustainable (where prostitution laws aren't thrown out in 50 years or sooner) would be that constitution is amended or reconstrued by SCOTUS to allow all forms of buggery to be made crimes again (overturn Griswold and Lawrence).

So criminalising gay sex helps in what way exactly? You aren't making much sense.

Well, if the basic act of prostitution only immoral because you pay another adult for money for sex, then how is it different from any other form of consensual sex between adults?

Srsly... the amount of bloviating handwringing in this thread makes me wanna (in the words of DFB) vom.

Every one of you watches porn.  Quit acting like it's some esoteric moral dilemma.  Chances are most of the porn you watch involves young women (or men) masturbating in front of a webcam or having sex with their significant other.  Not professionally produced pr0ns.

Immoral or moral or right or wrong or whatever... just like it was up to the people in the porno to make the porno (they were compensated for their time and the risk involved)... it is up to me and me along whether I watch it.  Moral or not.

If you want to lie to me and pretend you don't watch porn, I won't believe you and your arguments will just lose any shred of credibility they have.

If you're honest about your porn habits and still think it's immoral on some level even if it's an acceptable immoral behavior.. then that's fine.

This. And saying that you engage in immoral behavior, if you take responsibility, is a credible thing to do. At that point, you can apologize to those you have hurt or find a reason to excuse it. Otherwise, you are either a liar or admitting to all of us that you're an a-hole.

[opebo]

Chances are most of the porn you watch involves young women (or men) masturbating in front of a webcam or having sex with their significant other.  Not professionally produced pr0ns.

What?  Really?  Is that the kind of weird stuff young people are into nowadays?  Good lord, the professional stuff is far better than that crap.  Like comparing Breaking Bad to watching a reality TV show.

[TNF]

Chances are most of the porn you watch involves young women (or men) masturbating in front of a webcam or having sex with their significant other.  Not professionally produced pr0ns.

What?  Really?  Is that the kind of weird stuff young people are into nowadays?  Good lord, the professional stuff is far better than that crap.  Like comparing Breaking Bad to watching a reality TV show.

Hear, hear!

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

[working on a response to Tik; will probably finish it this evening since I have other things to take care of first]

[Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck]

Chances are most of the porn you watch involves young women (or men) masturbating in front of a webcam or having sex with their significant other.  Not professionally produced pr0ns.

What?  Really?  Is that the kind of weird stuff young people are into nowadays?  Good lord, the professional stuff is far better than that crap.  Like comparing Breaking Bad to watching a reality TV show.

Hear, hear!

Hey hey!  To each his own!  I quite enjoy watching a hottie play with herself in front of the webcam and I think you'd be hard pressed to call me a prude! 

[windjammer]

Chances are most of the porn you watch involves young women (or men) masturbating in front of a webcam or having sex with their significant other.  Not professionally produced pr0ns.

What?  Really?  Is that the kind of weird stuff young people are into nowadays?  Good lord, the professional stuff is far better than that crap.  Like comparing Breaking Bad to watching a reality TV show.

Hear, hear!

Hey hey!  To each his own!  I quite enjoy watching a hottie play with herself in front of the webcam and I think you'd be hard pressed to call me a prude! 

You know Hockeydude, I'm not sure someone in this forum has ever thought you were a prude .

[Antonio the Sixth]

If you're honest about your porn habits and still think it's immoral on some level even if it's an acceptable immoral behavior.. then that's fine.

There are all sorts of things I do that I consider wrong, and feel bad about myself for that. I'm pretty sure it's a common situation for people.