Israeli General Election (2nd of March, 2020): Madness

[Famous Mortimer]

Meretz is talking about merging with the Arabs again.

[Famous Mortimer]

The Likud is Israel's main National Religious party now so the old NRP and it's descendants are unnecessary

[Famous Mortimer]

a permanent electoral carnival of horse-trading, shifting alliances

lol Israel already has this. Coalitions can exist under both FPTP and PR.

[Famous Mortimer]

Some Israeli Arab Christians want to remain in Israel because they expect Israel will do more to protect minority rights than a Palestinian state.

Some Israeli Muslims even want to remain in Israel because they expect Israel will provide better social services than a Palestinian state.

Very very few Arab Israelis want to remain in Israel out of a sense of patriotism or loyalty though. Why would they? Even if the Nation-State Law hadn't made it explicit, there's always been the implicit understanding that the state is not for them. To say that they are not loyal to Israel is not an attack on them, it's a value neutral state, it's completely rational for them not to be loyal to Israel.

Comparing how Arab Israelis feel about Israel to how Jewish Americans feel about America is ridiculous. America was not founded on Jewish land, it hasn't hindered the existence of a Jewish state (it's actually done the opposite). Beyond the most surface level, the two situations have almost nothing in common.

Umm Al Fahm should be in Palestine. If a Palestinian state does come into being and Umm Al Fahm isn't part of it, it will only be to appease liberal Jewish Israelis (not Arab Israelis) who dislike the idea of an ethnostate and get warm fuzzies at the though of any non-Jew living in Israel.

 

I don't understand your distinction between Jewish nationalism in America and Palestinian nationalism in Israel. Yes, obviously a traditionally Zionist superpower like America has different political contours than a small ethnostate like Israel. But the only reason I can fathom that you would assert that it's totally legitimate for US Jews to wrap themselves in Israeli flags but not for for Palestinian Israelis to wrap themselves in Palestinian flags is that you like Jewish nationalism much more than you like Palestinian nationalism. The point is that you should be able to wave an Israeli flag and keep your US citizenship. And you should be able to wave your Palestinian flag and keep your Arab citizenship.

Your view of patriotism is also particularly odd. The Arab Israelis demanding Israel abide by its founding principles and constitutional commitments to equality and democracy seem to me far more patriotic than the right wing zealots advocating ethnic cleansing and suppression of non-Jewish minorities. The nation state law is atrocious not because it cements in law a historical "implicit understanding" of Jewish political supremacy but precisely the opposite--that Jewish leaders have always told Arabs that they are equal citizens who's identity is no more or less important in a democratic state like Israel and the nation state law says exactly the opposite.

So celebrating the citizenship and identity of non-Jews in Israel is not just about giving liberals a thrill. It is about fidelity to the values and pluralistic identity of the state itself.  The mythical Jewish monolith you imagine (desire?) to be is obviously not my Israel and more importantly it isn't the real Israel.  It wasn't made to be that, and with over a quarter of the population consisting of non-Jews it isn't that today, either.

Tossing Umm al Fahm to Palestine because its residents are brown Arabs who don't clutch the Israeli flag as dogmatically and absurdly as certain American Jews and Israeli right wingers is every bit as racist and bigoted as it seems.

Lol that’s some WACK false equivalence

Is it bigoted if I said Fermanagh should go to the Republic of Ireland because the majority of people in that county are Catholic, ethnically Irish, Sinn Fein voting Republicans? That’s a legitimate political debate, and actually what the majority want.

The Palestinian flag is a negation of Israeli nationalism. The Israeli flag is not a negation of American nationalism.

[Famous Mortimer]

It's a mistake by the Joint List to recommend Gantz, he's worse than Netanyahu when it comes to the peace plan.

It was the wish of the majority of the Palestinian-Israeli population . I’ll let them know they need to consult the brave keyboard warriors of America first next time

Don't even. TSA is Palestinian and has family in both "Israel proper" and the West Bank.

It's funny how I never hear you guys criticize pro-Israel American evangelicals like this.

It's a mistake by the Joint List to recommend Gantz, he's worse than Netanyahu when it comes to the peace plan.

Gantz is just the lesser evil and the only alternative to the establishment of a full apartheid ethno-estate by the Israeli hard right. If the Joint List does not recommend this centre-right zionist, their MKs will render useless and irrelevant. Gantz is bad, but the alternative is abominable. There are not good choices in Israeli politics, face it

Leave if you're not gonna contribute anything interesting/constructive 🤷🏻‍♂️

Yeah. He should strive to be the amazing, insightful poster that you are.

I think I voiced my strong dislike of the Jewish Right in America on more than one occasion, the same applies to the Palestinian expats who are quite similar in being more “radical”. It’s always easier to be radical when you don’t live through the ramifications.

The JL has the highest turnout ever because their public wanted them to help Gantz oust Bibi. I think they understand their needs better than our vigilantes here

Young Palestinians abroad abroad sometimes like to LARP a kind of ideological and electric intifada as a way of getting in touch with their roots. Here in Israel (and Palestine) we have no such thoroughly American luxury. We have to find a way to carve out opportunities and lives for our families that are hopeful, prosperous, and humane. The carnival-barking politics of hate Bibi and the right have championed makes that much more difficult. So even if we have to stomach an imperfect leader like Gantz to get Netanyahu out, then absolutely we ahould do it. Being prissy about ideology is simply not an option for Arabs (or Jews) living with the consequences of politics here. Good for the Joint List integrating that reality.

I'll add one thing to this discussion. It's not unique to the Palestinian expat/migrant community to pursue the political goal above all else, even though those on the ground may not even desire said political goal. Every expat/migrant group of considerable size ends up focusing solely on this political goal. The realities of life back home that concern those on the ground no longer apply to them, instead, these realities become part of their domestic political agenda. These groups therefore have the luxury of ideological purity in its different forms. This trend can be easily seen in some of histories most famous migrant/expat communities. For example, the Russian Settlement in 19th century Switzerland argued about what kind of revolution should occur and how it should be done. Everyone except for the most loyal ignored these expats because the day-today struggle for better wages, land, working conditions, and dignity was more important. Another example can be seen in 20th century US, with the various migrant groups who pushed US policy towards adopting their political views of the homeland. The Cubans want regime change in Cuba, no matter the consequences. The Vietnamese wanted retribution and ideally regime change in Vietnam, no matter the consequences. The Irish wanted the British out of Northern Ireland and supported Sinn Fein, no matter the nuance.

It's just how these things tend to go when you are removed from the immediate people on the ground.

Yes, every diaspora people is like this. Except oddly the Jews.