Europe and "white guilt"

[Leftbehind]

Not sure why you have to go to the far-right to find equivalents to US parties. The modern Tory-New Labour were pretty naked attempts to copy Reagan/Clinton respectively. There's a few differences here and there, but the only thing that really separated contemporary UK politics from US is we had a three-party system, and thus a naive belief there was a possibility of escaping that right-wing dichotomy - which has since shown to be laughably false - and so we're on our way to losing that.

Chuka Umunna seems to be never-endingly compared to Obama in our press. I may be misunderstanding you, but I doubt any possible minority would need to rely on his minority's vote to get elected?

I'm not sure I understand your question.  I think a minority candidate would probably have to rely, in part, on strong support by his (and other) minority group.  Of course, the nature of being a minority means that the support will have to cross over to the majority group(s).

Essentially we agree - I'm saying that the idea of a minority candidate appealing to his/her minority would be very low on the list for a campaign that can be classed anywhere near a success - they'd be targeting their ideological vote. You could get a 'European Obama' without that though, surely?

Belgiansocialist - click the link.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

There are no political parties in Europe with anything beyond a passing resemblance to either political party in America, because American political parties are not really political parties in a way that makes sense to political culture in Europe. And as this thread is all about misunderstanding and transatlantic irritation, one of the main reasons for that (on the part of people on either side of the sea) is a failure to understand quite how different American political culture is from those in Europe. Americans do it because the American media hardly ever reports on events in the outside world, and when it does it does so from an extremely American-centric point of view. Europeans do it because while American politics is reported on quite a lot, it is almost always reported on as if American political culture was a natural extension (or at least a very close relative) of the political culture in the country in question.

Consider the tedious claims that America has elected a minority President, but that European countries have not done something similar, and therefore are hypocritical in some way or other. This is an argument that only makes sense from an American perspective; Britain, for example, had a Jewish Prime Minister (admittedly one who was utterly assimilated and who, anyway, didn't come from the main Jewish community in Britain. But then Obama did not grow up in the projects or the Delta) as long ago as 1868 and Prime Minister who's first language was not English and who was often subject to ethnic slurs by 1916. How much does that say anyway? As the example of Léon Blum shows, having a leader from a minority group does not necessarily demonstrate great tolerance on the part of the entire electorate.

[afleitch]

Consider the tedious claims that America has elected a minority President, but that European countries have not done something similar, and therefore are hypocritical in some way or other. This is an argument that only makes sense from an American perspective; Britain, for example, had a Jewish Prime Minister (admittedly one who was utterly assimilated and who, anyway, didn't come from the main Jewish community in Britain. But then Obama did not grow up in the projects or the Delta) as long ago as 1868 and Prime Minister who's first language was not English and who was often subject to ethnic slurs by 1916. How much does that say anyway? As the example of Léon Blum shows, having a leader from a minority group does not necessarily demonstrate great tolerance on the part of the entire electorate.

Also worth noting that in the past half century we have also had an unmarried 'bachelor' and a woman as PM (who interestingly converted from Methodist to CofE as the former was seen as a barrier to her political ambitions back when such things mattered, internally within the party at least)

And of course the leader of the Labour Party is an atheist from a Jewish family who when elected wasn't married to mother of his children (oh the humanity!)

[TheGlobalizer]

There are no political parties in Europe with anything beyond a passing resemblance to either political party in America, because American political parties are not really political parties in a way that makes sense to political culture in Europe.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at.  I certainly think the tenor between US and European politics is different, but both lack nuance and both result in huge majorities voting nearly the exact same way every time, regardless of winner or loser.  The biggest difference I see is the fact that the Democrats and Republicans almost always maintain their coalitions, and when they don't, they realign to obtain roughly the same voter splits as before.  European parties (particularly on the continent) shuffle the deck frequently and so force people to relook at the actual ideology more often than every 20 years or so.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Can you join the Democratic Party?

[TheGlobalizer]

Can you join the Democratic Party?

Well, I'd call it "affiliate with" the Democratic Party, but sure.  Fill out a card and give it to the Secretary of State.  Doesn't even cost anything.  Takes a couple of weeks to take effect.  Change it as much as you like.

Your point?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Well, I'd call it "affiliate with" the Democratic Party, but sure.  Fill out a card and give it to the Secretary of State.  Doesn't even cost anything.  Takes a couple of weeks to take effect.  Change it as much as you like.

Yes, you can indeed register your affiliation to the Democratic Party in some (but not all) states. Which has no practical impact on anything outside states with closed primary systems, and even then very, very little.

Can you actually join the organisation though? Is there even a single organisation that could be described as 'the Democratic Party'?

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Is that you can't. Which is extremely important because it means that the basis for the organisation of the two big political parties in America is completely different to anything that could be described as a political party in a European context. Which is extremely important because that means that certain very important parts of American political culture are utterly different to those in Europe.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Some state parties give out "membership cards" to donors (I know the Minnesota Republicans do, not sure if the DFL does), but of course these don't have any real type of meaning.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Well, the German Greens don't have membership cards either.

With joining the party, you're added to their internal mailing lists (which you're free to unsubscribe) and your bank account is debited with the monthly membership fee (the exact amount of your membership fee is determined by yourself). That's basically it.

Internal votings are also handled somewhat... lax. Technically, any person is allowed to vote there, even non-members. To achieve this, they devised a somewhat complexer process which bends the law without actually breaking it (at least I hope so). Maybe I should stop writing now, otherwise I could get them into trouble.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

It's not about membership cards (however tempting a shorthand that is). The point is that the only way in which you can 'join' one of the major parties in the U.S is to register your affiliation to the party with the state (and you can't even do that in some states).

[TheGlobalizer]

I'm not sure I understand the point.  "Different" does not imply "irreconcilable" or even "categorically different".

Individuals in both countries can become active in politics and join political organizations.  It's not like European parties have closed breeding colonies that furnish their candidate pool.

[Gustaf]

I'm not sure I understand the point.  "Different" does not imply "irreconcilable" or even "categorically different".

Individuals in both countries can become active in politics and join political organizations.  It's not like European parties have closed breeding colonies that furnish their candidate pool.

That last sentence is actually false, at least as concerns most of the major Swedish parties.

[TheGlobalizer]

I'm not sure I understand the point.  "Different" does not imply "irreconcilable" or even "categorically different".

Individuals in both countries can become active in politics and join political organizations.  It's not like European parties have closed breeding colonies that furnish their candidate pool.

That last sentence is actually false, at least as concerns most of the major Swedish parties.

I apparently have some recent generation (grandfather) Swedish heritage -- I wonder if I'm heir to the throne of some Swedish political party.  ;-)

[Gustaf]

I'm not sure I understand the point.  "Different" does not imply "irreconcilable" or even "categorically different".

Individuals in both countries can become active in politics and join political organizations.  It's not like European parties have closed breeding colonies that furnish their candidate pool.

That last sentence is actually false, at least as concerns most of the major Swedish parties.

I apparently have some recent generation (grandfather) Swedish heritage -- I wonder if I'm heir to the throne of some Swedish political party.  ;-)

Since you didn't grow up in the breeding colony, probably not.

[TheGlobalizer]

I'm not sure I understand the point.  "Different" does not imply "irreconcilable" or even "categorically different".

Individuals in both countries can become active in politics and join political organizations.  It's not like European parties have closed breeding colonies that furnish their candidate pool.

That last sentence is actually false, at least as concerns most of the major Swedish parties.

I apparently have some recent generation (grandfather) Swedish heritage -- I wonder if I'm heir to the throne of some Swedish political party.  ;-)

Since you didn't grow up in the breeding colony, probably not.

Maybe I'm an heir through an illegitimate child or something.  That flies in European descendent analysis, doesn't it?  ;-)  If it makes Obama Irish, it sure as sh**t makes me a Swedish political kingmaker.