War Guarantees

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The Nazis were always going to go on a mad conquest-and-destruction spree... that much is blindingly obvious to anyone who's ever looked at Nazi economic policy, let alone the bloody rhetoric...

[Filuwaúrdjan]

And do you really think Hitler wouldn't have killed the Jews without a war going on?

There are good reasons to think that actually. Trouble is... there's no good reason, none whatsoever, to assume that the Nazis might not have gone on a war-and-destruction spree...

[Filuwaúrdjan]

However, without the World War, only the Jews in Germany, Austria, Czechslovakia, and part of Poland. Without the war guarantee, the Jews of Holland, Belgium, France, Italy, Yugoslavia, Greece, Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria would have most likely been saved.

Even if this demented idea that there would have been no war without a war guarantee is accepted as the truth (and it rather obviously shouldn't be), I should point out that the Jewish population in the group of four countries above was far larger than the latter group.

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Myth. The mass murder of the Jews of Europe started on the eastern front in the summer of 1941.

"Over Babiy Yar
there are no memorials"

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Some people think that genocide, ethnic cleansing and total war are bad things. Note also that the Holocaust only began after the invasion of the Soviet Union.

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Both disputable and totally beside the point.

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Danzig was most certainly not[/i under Polish administration. It is part of Poland now but was not then.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

WWII started after the Polish guarantee. As I said earlier, without a war going on, Hitler's ability to kill that many Jews would hav ebeen seriously diminished. And you don't even mention how the British guarantee was completely counterproductive, since half of the Jews killed in the Holocaust were Polish, an additional 3 million Poles were killed, and Poland had to suffer 5 years of Nazi rule and 45 years of Communist rule.

Where exactly did you pick up this strange delusion that the Nazis only went on a mad conquest-and-murder spree because Britain and France declared war on them [qm].

[Filuwaúrdjan]

as long as they left any fortune they might have behind and didn't go to a place where they would be a danger to Germany in the foreseeable future. Ie, preferrably to a colonial possession outside Europe. Such as Palestine.

And, of course, the Madagascar Plan.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Yes, but the destruction would have been limited to those areas. The Jews of the rest of Europe would have survived. Additionally, the Jews that were in those areas could have left Germany for Palestine or the United States, since there would be no war going on.

A sufficiently nauseous argument for me not to bother with replying to in any detail.

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No. Days. The war on the eastern front didn't begin until 1941. And did you not yourself acknowledge (more or less) that Hitler was always going to attack the Soviet Union?

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What?

Sorry, I don't think that you quite understand the point I was trying to make. Let me make this very clear; a Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union was always going to lead to genocide, ethnic cleansing and total war. This was deliberate Nazi policy, openly stated.

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I'm not quite sure why you assume that I must be defending Stalin...

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[/quote]

This is not Polish administration. Polish administration would mean that the city was run by the Polish government; it rather obviously wasn't. As that quote itself makes very clear at the end.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Precisely.

This:

Not sure / No.

On some of the points: Hitler was always going to attack, sooner or later, all countries with Eastern European Jews and/or governing "Marxists" unless prevented from doing so.

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The Holocaust as happened would not of course have happened without the war - duh. Most of its victims were not within Hitler's grasp without a war.

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war situation (which in turn was inevitable)

Does not look much like your argument.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I am not trying to place the blame on somewhere else.

Oh, really? These words not yours then?

The former led to WWII, the Holocaust, 6,000,000 Polish deaths and Soviet rule over Eastern Europe.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Actually, historians have tended to trace the origins of the Final Solution back further.

Some have... yes... but not so much in recent decades. The trouble with intentionalism is that there's very little in the way of evidence for its main arguments; it always rested far too much on assumption, assertion and supposition.

Not that the alternative theories fit in with what SPC's spouting, of course. Quite the opposite actually...

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The Fleming book is from the late 1980s

I know it's from the '80's because I've a copy of it in a box somewhere. It's still quite good in some areas; but things have moved on a lot since then, and not exactly in a direction that Fleming would have liked. Writing had been on wall since before Fleming's book was published actually (Der Staat Hitlers, by way of example, was published as far back as 1969) but you know what historical "debates" are like