War Guarantees

[SPC]

No/No, obviously. The former led to WWII, the Holocaust, 6,000,000 Polish deaths and Soviet rule over Eastern Europe. Who knows what consequences the latter would have.

[SPC]

Wait a minute.. Are you comparing the Situation of Poland in 1939 to Israel in 2008? Of all the things ever said on the forum, this is possibly the most moronic and ill-informed (excluding anything Richius ever posted)

Also the Evidence that the Holocaust would never have happened without the War (which was always going to happen anyway, see Al's post) is Scanty at best... at best the Nazis would have mass deported all the Jews and other Undesirables.. probably in subhuman conditions where hundreds of thousands nay millions would have died and needless to say the conditions to this new land would not have been very accomodating.

So, an ad hominem attack is your evidence against my claim?

I acknowledge that the Holocaust likely would have happened. However, without the World War, only the Jews in Germany, Austria, Czechslovakia, and part of Poland. Without the war guarantee, the Jews of Holland, Belgium, France, Italy, Yugoslavia, Greece, Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria would have most likely been saved. Also, you neglect to mention that the Final Solution wasn't made until 1942.

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And what's wrong with that? Stalin murdered more people than Hitler did.

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You neglect to mention that Poland was surrounded by the Nazis in the West and North and the Communists in the East. After the Nazi-Soviet Nonagression Pact, Poland was dommed. Also, Churchill encouraged Chamberlain to made the foolish guarantee.

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Danzig was an independent "free State" under the League of Nations. Though it is true that Poland was not going to give over to Germany. Furthermore the Polish Government (like the French) had a woeful, to say the least, understanding of their military capability vis-a-vis Nazi Germany. [/quote]

It was under Polish administration.

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Had Britain stayed isolationist (hah!) then surely the Iron Curtain would stretch as far as Portugal.. or Hitler would have won the war.

[/quote]

Nonsense! Hitler's aspirations were in the East. He didn't go into the West until after britain and France declared war. Had Britain stayed out of the war, Hitler and Stalin likely would have had to fight against each other by themselves, thus weakening both tyrannical regimes. Also, please explain why what Chamberlain did at Munich was any worse than what Churchill did at Yalta?

[SPC]

No/No, obviously. The former led to WWII, the Holocaust, 6,000,000 Polish deaths and Soviet rule over Eastern Europe. Who knows what consequences the latter would have.

Are you serious?  Do you really think offering a promise to Poland over German invasion is what caused WWII.  It was Hitler's dreams of conquest, megalomania, and his ability to bring a mass delusion on the German populace?  And do you really think Hitler wouldn't have killed the Jews without a war going on?  Nuts.

WWII started after the Polish guarantee. As I said earlier, without a war going on, Hitler's ability to kill that many Jews would hav ebeen seriously diminished. And you don't even mention how the British guarantee was completely counterproductive, since half of the Jews killed in the Holocaust were Polish, an additional 3 million Poles were killed, and Poland had to suffer 5 years of Nazi rule and 45 years of Communist rule.

[SPC]

However, without the World War, only the Jews in Germany, Austria, Czechslovakia, and part of Poland. Without the war guarantee, the Jews of Holland, Belgium, France, Italy, Yugoslavia, Greece, Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria would have most likely been saved.

Even if this demented idea that there would have been no war without a war guarantee is accepted as the truth (and it rather obviously shouldn't be), I should point out that the Jewish population in the group of four countries above was far larger than the latter group.

Yes, but the destruction would have been limited to those areas. The Jews of the rest of Europe would have survived. Additionally, the Jews that were in those areas could have left Germany for Palestine or the United States, since there would be no war going on.

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Myth. The mass murder of the Jews of Europe started on the eastern front in the summer of 1941.[/quote]

Almost two years after the war began.

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Some people think that genocide, ethnic cleansing and total war are bad things. Note also that the Holocaust only began after the invasion of the Soviet Union.[/quote]

And why should Stalin be given a free pass for genocide, ethnic cleansing, and total war? Stalin invaded Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, and Romania prior to Operation Barbarosa (sp?) and additionally placed East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, and Albania under the Iron Curtain. Its not like he was morally superior to Hitler when it came to invading independent nations.

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Danzig was most certainly not[/i under Polish administration. It is part of Poland now but was not then.
[/quote]

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[SPC]

lol! SPC, you're either a dumbass or a fraud if you believe it was the UK's protection of Poland that caused the Holocaust and not the Nazi's own twisted intentions.

Of course the Nazis were directly responsible for the Holocaust. I am not trying to place the blame on somewhere else. However, the British protection of Poland did absolutely nothing to protect Poland's Jews and Christians from being slaughtered by the Nazi regime and subsuqently ruled by the Soviets for an additional 45 years.

[SPC]

Not sure / No.

On some of the points: Hitler was always going to attack, sooner or later, all countries with Eastern European Jews and/or governing "Marxists" unless prevented from doing so. Other countries such as the contemptible French and the fishlike British only if they stood in his way.

He wasn't going to go away by internal uprising - that much was clear by 1936.

The Holocaust as happened would not of course have happened without the war - duh. Most of its victims were not within Hitler's grasp without a war.
What is certainly a correct point is that government-organized mass killing of German and Austrian Jews would not have occurred without the war situation (which in turn was inevitable) - the Nazis were perfectly fine with Jews emigrating, as long as they left any fortune they might have behind and didn't go to a place where they would be a danger to Germany in the foreseeable future. Ie, preferrably to a colonial possession outside Europe. Such as Palestine.

Precisely.

[SPC]

No/No, obviously. The former led to WWII, the Holocaust, 6,000,000 Polish deaths and Soviet rule over Eastern Europe. Who knows what consequences the latter would have.

Are you serious?  Do you really think offering a promise to Poland over German invasion is what caused WWII.  It was Hitler's dreams of conquest, megalomania, and his ability to bring a mass delusion on the German populace?  And do you really think Hitler wouldn't have killed the Jews without a war going on?  Nuts.

WWII started after the Polish guarantee. As I said earlier, without a war going on, Hitler's ability to kill that many Jews would hav ebeen seriously diminished. And you don't even mention how the British guarantee was completely counterproductive, since half of the Jews killed in the Holocaust were Polish, an additional 3 million Poles were killed, and Poland had to suffer 5 years of Nazi rule and 45 years of Communist rule.

There was always going to be a war.  That is my point.  Hitler's main goal was the war... the war and the destruction of the Jews.  You act as though Hitler just woke up one day and thought "gee, I don't like the defensive pact the Poles have with the French and Brits... lets fight em", he was building up to it for 7 years.  Munich?  I mean, seriously, where do you get your ideas from?

Churchill, Hitler, and the Unnecesary War by Patrick Buchanan, on the New York Times Bestseller list.