UK General Discussion:The Rt. Hon Alex Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, Populist Hero

[afleitch]

Terrible news out of Plymouth.

The perpetrator seemed to be somewhat 'online'. But best left to the authorities.

[CumbrianLefty]

I see that the word "incel" is being used again.

[Geoffrey Howe]

She's not actually Thatcher in the above post.

So what? It's not her marriage to Dennis Thatcher that made her an unlikely Labour voter, but her upbringing and the values and social position of her family.

Yes, agree with this. Its just about possible to see how different circumstances might have made her a Liberal, but *never* Labour.

Her family was traditionally Liberal, perhaps unsurprisingly for Methodist shopkeepers. Though They were Liberals of the Gladstone rather than Lloyd-George variety, and by 1950 her father said that the Conservatives had come to stand for much of what the Liberals used to.

[Conservatopia]

She's not actually Thatcher in the above post.

So what? It's not her marriage to Dennis Thatcher that made her an unlikely Labour voter, but her upbringing and the values and social position of her family.

Yes, agree with this. Its just about possible to see how different circumstances might have made her a Liberal, but *never* Labour.

Her family was traditionally Liberal, perhaps unsurprisingly for Methodist shopkeepers. Though They were Liberals of the Gladstone rather than Lloyd-George variety, and by 1950 her father said that the Conservatives had come to stand for much of what the Liberals used to.

Agreed.  Thatcher was obviously much closer to the ideology of Gladstone than to that of Disraeli, which the Tories then were following.  I could waffle all day about Gladstone and Dizzy but it would become boring quite quickly I fear.

[beesley]

I see that the word "incel" is being used again.

What was your issue with its use here?

[Blair]

The Lib Dems are calling for UN Peacekeepers to be deployed to Afghanistan.

Perhaps Vince Cable can ask the Chinese to take part.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Her family was traditionally Liberal, perhaps unsurprisingly for Methodist shopkeepers. Though They were Liberals of the Gladstone rather than Lloyd-George variety, and by 1950 her father said that the Conservatives had come to stand for much of what the Liberals used to.

This was how she always liked to present things. The reality was a bit more complicated. Alfred Roberts was not a humble shopkeeper even if he had started out as one: he ran a local chain of grocery stores. And he was functionally a Conservative in local politics as early as the late 1920s and was quite openly so by the 1930s. Of course this was not incompatible with a view (one that he clearly had) that he hadn't changed, that the party had, that the Yellow Book in particular was the thin end of the wedge, that he represented the legitimate Liberal tradition and that whatever was left of the party did not.

[Cassius]

The Lib Dems are calling for UN Peacekeepers to be deployed to Afghanistan.

Perhaps Vince Cable can ask the Chinese to take part.

Well Ben Wallace certainly appears open to a possible high tech re-enactment of the Retreat from Kabul by the British Army!

[Geoffrey Howe]

Her family was traditionally Liberal, perhaps unsurprisingly for Methodist shopkeepers. Though They were Liberals of the Gladstone rather than Lloyd-George variety, and by 1950 her father said that the Conservatives had come to stand for much of what the Liberals used to.

This was how she always liked to present things. The reality was a bit more complicated. Alfred Roberts was not a humble shopkeeper even if he had started out as one: he ran a local chain of grocery stores. And he was functionally a Conservative in local politics as early as the late 1920s and was quite openly so by the 1930s. Of course this was not incompatible with a view (one that he clearly had) that he hadn't changed, that the party had, that the Yellow Book in particular was the thin end of the wedge, that he represented the legitimate Liberal tradition and that whatever was left of the party did not.

Agreed. I don't have the quote with me right now, but somewhere in Charles Moore's biography she is quoted as saying something along the lines of "they were always Liberals, but like most small business types they were dismayed by their turn towards collectivism at the beginning of the century." FWIW Geoffrey Howe sort of saw himself in this way - he campaigned for a Liberal in 1945, and says that at some point during the Attlee government he came to the view that the Conservatives were the best outlet for what he liked in the Liberals: "free markets and humane social policy." His father was definitely a Welsh Liberal back in the day (and amusingly his grandfather was a founder-member of the Tinplaters' Union).

[Blair]

The Commons and the Lords are both being recalled on Wednesday.

While there's a rather irritable tendency to see everything about Afghanistan through the US lens, there has been a rather universal lack of interest in the UK about our role- if it wasn't for a small group of ex-Army MPs (largely conservatives) I very much doubt we'd be hearing much at all from the UK side about what is a rather damning indictment of our foreign policy- in all its strands.

I very much feel there would have been a time when Raab would have faced pressures to resign- but it feels like a collective shrug by parts of our political class here compared to the US, Australia or Germany.

For reference the statement the Prime Minister made only last month feels like a world apart- but even this statement felt like most MPs including the PM were just going through the motions as if this was a general debate on buses.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2021-07-08/debates/CBB76087-2079-42F0-A58C-2DFEBED899F1/Afghanistan?highlight=afghanistan#contribution-A8910F4E-35C6-45C0-BF28-DB455A891E68

[Cassius]

Why should Raab resign? We’ve not had combat troops in Afghanistan since 2014, and whilst I’d agree that there is much to chew over as regards Britain’s role in Afghanistan, the problems relating to that role long predate the current government. Plus, it’s not as if we exercised any significant influence over the US’ decision to pull their remaining forces out; regardless of the strength of our past commitments, we’ve been very much a peripheral player for the last few years. The bottom line is that this was a US affair and that the US doesn’t care very much about what we think (nor does it care very much about what the other NATO powers think).

[Blair]

Why should Raab resign? We’ve not had combat troops in Afghanistan since 2014, and whilst I’d agree that there is much to chew over as regards Britain’s role in Afghanistan, the problems relating to that role long predate the current government. Plus, it’s not as if we exercised any significant influence over the US’ decision to pull their remaining forces out; regardless of the strength of our past commitments, we’ve been very much a peripheral player for the last few years. The bottom line is that this was a US affair and that the US doesn’t care very much about what we think (nor does it care very much about what the other NATO powers think).

I meant more so he would have at least faced pressure to do so at one time-even if it was just the opposition calling for it, or at least someone in the Government would have been under pressure.

The bolded is interested as I was going to post on here how surprised I've been by the large number of centre-left/progressive/cameroons types in UK politics who are decrying the end of the US world order and are furious at Joe Biden- but this is the one thing that Biden has always been pretty clear about and has a very long track of saying so in public!

Equally with people claiming that this shows that the UK/NATO etc can't count on America- this has been known for many many decades and a while host of events in the past have shown this.

[CumbrianLefty]

Why should Raab resign? We’ve not had combat troops in Afghanistan since 2014, and whilst I’d agree that there is much to chew over as regards Britain’s role in Afghanistan, the problems relating to that role long predate the current government. Plus, it’s not as if we exercised any significant influence over the US’ decision to pull their remaining forces out; regardless of the strength of our past commitments, we’ve been very much a peripheral player for the last few years. The bottom line is that this was a US affair and that the US doesn’t care very much about what we think (nor does it care very much about what the other NATO powers think).

I meant more so he would have at least faced pressure to do so at one time-even if it was just the opposition calling for it, or at least someone in the Government would have been under pressure.

The bolded is interested as I was going to post on here how surprised I've been by the large number of centre-left/progressive/cameroons types in UK politics who are decrying the end of the US world order and are furious at Joe Biden- but this is the one thing that Biden has always been pretty clear about and has a very long track of saying so in public!

Equally with people claiming that this shows that the UK/NATO etc can't count on America- this has been known for many many decades and a while host of events in the past have shown this.

I'm not.

A particular sort of muscular militarism has become a badge of identity for some Labour right types in particular, and they will be feeling totally bereft just now. And its not just Biden, the US has been in a steady move to isolationism ever since the neocons failed.

(people forget how unenthusiastic Obama was for intervention in both Syria and Libya, for example)

[Cassius]

I think some of our MP’s need to sit down and have a nice cold drink (or perhaps that’s the problem).

[Geoffrey Howe]

This is not the first occasion that Mrs May has been scathing about the government. Is she going to do a Ted Heath?

[Cassius]

I am 100% certain that if the Vicar’s daughter was still PM then everything in Afghanistan would have been absolutely great forever. 100% certain.

[TheTide]

I am 100% certain that if the Vicar’s daughter was still PM then everything in Afghanistan would have been absolutely great forever. 100% certain.

She's been pretty useless at every major position she's held. Her dour personality has sometimes helped to conceal that.

[CumbrianLefty]

Objectively, her PMship remains as unimpressive as it almost always appeared at the time.

Its just that her successor - at his absolute slapdash, shambolic worst today by all accounts - often makes her look better than she actually was.

[Blair]

A good day for Parliamentary speeches from the ex-forces MPs & also from some Labour MPs about the Refugee crisis- it is very easy for Ministers to sit and say 'we'll accept 20,000' but they did this with Syria & with the Dubs Scheme (for unaccompanied children) and then through up hundreds of hurdles and loopholes over the next 18 months- the real challenge will be in how this scheme & the Government respond when the people claiming Asylum present more complex cases.

It is starting to dawn on MPs that this is an event that will shape our own politics for a considerable number of years.

This is not the first occasion that Mrs May has been scathing about the government. Is she going to do a Ted Heath?

I think there was a loathing between Heath & Thatcher (best summed up by the rather homophobic quote from Thatcher that when Heath looked at her 'it was like a women looking at another women') that there isn't between May & Johnson- it's just that May and a rather significant number of Conservative MPs have serious issues with the Prime Minister.

Her speech today wasn't particularly ground-breaking- she's made similar comments before about the rather lamentable nature of our 'Global Britain' campaign.

[Blair]

A not so good day for Desmond Swayne- this is not new for him & baffling to think he was once PPS to a Prime Minister.

https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1427961837019037708?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7...

[Cassius]

A lot of MP’s remain severely deluded (or maybe wilfully blind), both in general about Britain’s level of influence in the world and in particular over Britain’s level of influence in Afghanistan and over US policy there. Any government, whether it were led by May, Cameron or a Labour PM, would have received the same (faulty) intelligence advice, and given the lack of bandwidth caused by coronavirus I very much doubt that the outcome would have been significantly different under May, Cameron or a Labour PM. This session of parliament is a particularly worthless one - Johnson should have stayed on his holidays.

However, I suppose the recall of parliament does represent an excellent chance for the armchair generals on the Tory backbench to sagely reflect on what they (exercising no executive responsibility) would have ‘done differently’, and for the rest of serial wafflers on the backbench of both parties to get a shot at appearing on telly (I notice this debate was rather better attended than debates on quotidian domestic issues, which aren’t as glamorous but where MP’s can actually exercise some meaningful influence and input, generally tend to be).

[YL]

Objectively, her PMship remains as unimpressive as it almost always appeared at the time.

Its just that her successor - at his absolute slapdash, shambolic worst today by all accounts - often makes her look better than she actually was.

She is quite good at being an ex-PM.

[Statilius the Epicurean]

A lot of MP’s remain severely deluded (or maybe wilfully blind), both in general about Britain’s level of influence in the world and in particular over Britain’s level of influence in Afghanistan and over US policy there.

The tenor of the debate in Parliament was baffling. It was as if MPs thought that we were the United States. I don't understand where such delusion like the idea that we could have prevented the fall of the Afghan government comes from, doesn't Parliament understand our own capabilities, constraints and history? Don't MPs remember that the British operation in Afghanistan ended in 2014 and basically no-one complained? I hope it isn't what I suspect and MPs are upset at what they've seen on social media and are using the government as a proxy for pretending they're in the US Congress and lambasting Biden, because that's the only way I can make sense of what was not a sensible or coherent debate about UK foreign policy.

[Blair]

A lot of MP’s remain severely deluded (or maybe wilfully blind), both in general about Britain’s level of influence in the world and in particular over Britain’s level of influence in Afghanistan and over US policy there.

The tenor of the debate in Parliament was baffling. It was as if MPs thought that we were the United States. I don't understand where such delusion like the idea that we could have prevented the fall of the Afghan government comes from, doesn't Parliament understand our own capabilities, constraints and history? Don't MPs remember that the British operation in Afghanistan ended in 2014 and basically no-one complained? I hope it isn't what I suspect and MPs are upset at what they've seen on social media and are using the government as a proxy for pretending they're in the US Congress and lambasting Biden, because that's the only way I can make sense of what was not a sensible or coherent debate about UK foreign policy.

I didn’t see anyone mention the magic word of defence cuts! The reality is that even 20 years ago our military would have struggled to carry out a large-scale evacuation mission without the US and I’m certain that with the current capacity we are not able to do anything close to it.

Some MPs like Tom Tugendhat have to their credit been sounding the alarm over the five years about the complete mess that is our foreign policy- it’s not just defence cuts though it’s the weakening and erosion of the foreign office, it’s the fact that DFID has been abolished, it’s the cuts to overseas aid, the disregard to work on issues like Asylum resettlement and it’s the general malaise around leading on this stuff.

If you want to have the capacity to carry out these sort of missions without the United States the reality is that we would be needing to spend more money and that would require MPs to have rather difficult conversations with themselves and the public. And equally I don’t think there’s a desire for that  sort of spending at the expense of a new bypass through the Towns Fund.

[Blair]

I did think Keir Starmer spoke well- it was a flash back to why a lot of Conservatives were quite worried about him becoming leader. The same for Lisa Nandy.