Can someone explain to me why I should support a united Ireland?

[minionofmidas]

Northern Irish protestants probably have no more Scottish ancestry than Western Scottish protestants (never even mind Scottish Catholics, that's a given of course) have Irish ancestry.

The North Channel is not very many miles wide. People have been migrating and even marrying across it since long before the "Plantations". The spread of Presbyterianism to Ulster is not chiefly the result of English government intervention (Anglicanism is a very different matter, of course).

[minionofmidas]

I've never understood why forcing the majority of population of a province into a country they don't want makes sense.

It usually doesn't.
As Patrick rightly points out, of course, the borders of Northern Ireland are a classic gerrymander - the maximum territory a pro-British government could hold in 1921 while following a semblance of democratic procedure, and not actually the territory that wanted to be split off.
Whether a United Ireland today would work out all that well is quite a different question... the unusual amount of ties that were never ruptured during the division is a good sign, but in general geographical cleavages are easier to create than to undo.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I seem to remember that there was supposed to be some sort of border review a few years later that was shelved because it'd have been unacceptable to both sides.

[minionofmidas]

The review happened but the results were not (at the time) released, nor of course acted upon. Creating a conspiracy theory as a result.
They were released decades later, and they had merely suggested to reunite some rural areas with their market towns. The North would have had gained a piece of Northwest Donegal, the Free State (as it was then) would have gained a number of smaller odds and ends elsewhere. I think the net sum was something of a wash.


EDIT: Northeast, of course.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Yeah, that sounds about right.

Btw, for reference:



http://cain.ulster.ac.uk/images/maps/2001religionwardsni1.jpg

[minionofmidas]

Is there a historical cause for the Catholic concentrations around the Loch?

[patrick1]

Is there a historical cause for the Catholic concentrations around the Loch?

Poor soil/bogland around a lot of the shores discouraged Protestant settlement.  Also Lough Neagh was and I believe is still owned by the Lord(s) Shaftesbury.  For hundreds of years it was also crown and private aristocratic fishing land which would discourage large scale business fishing ventures.

[TeePee4Prez]

It is Irish land.

It makes the map look so much neater.

Protestant Irishs remain Irish. If only Republic of Ireland could get rid of its reactionnary catholicism and Ulster protestants be also less ridiculously radicals, these two communities could easily live together.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[TeePee4Prez]

I'm not Catholic, so I don't see any reason why I should. Give some reasons.

I'll also add Bill Clinton, an Irish Protestant by heritage, also supports a united Ireland as do I.

And I am a harsh critic of the Catholic church as you know.  They set doctrine but only enforce certain parts of it on liberal issues and look the other way on conservatives.  I'll go one further and say the Catholic Church didn't do what they should have during the Potato Famine, in fact the Quakers did more to help.

It's simply time to end extremism be it the Orangemen and the IRA.

[patrick1]

It is Irish land.

It makes the map look so much neater.

Protestant Irishs remain Irish. If only Republic of Ireland could get rid of its reactionnary catholicism and Ulster protestants be also less ridiculously radicals, these two communities could easily live together.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

and then you would both be wrong. 
Northern Ireland is one of the safest places in Europe.  For instance, N Ireland have similar population figures. Roughly 1.5 million for Philly and 1.8 for NI.  In 2006 there were 23 murders in NI and 406 in Philly.  Frankly, the city of brotherly love could probably learn about living harmoniously from NI.

[TeePee4Prez]

It is Irish land.

It makes the map look so much neater.

Protestant Irishs remain Irish. If only Republic of Ireland could get rid of its reactionnary catholicism and Ulster protestants be also less ridiculously radicals, these two communities could easily live together.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

and then you would both be wrong. 
Northern Ireland is one of the safest places in Europe.  For instance, N Ireland have similar population figures. Roughly 1.5 million for Philly and 1.8 for NI.  In 2006 there were 23 murders in NI and 406 in Philly.  Frankly, the city of brotherly love could probably learn about living harmoniously from NI.

Of course.  Here it's drugs, gangs, etc.  I even heard per capita it's worse than Iraq here... well, depending on the neighborhood.

[Gustaf]

It makes sense.

I've never understood why forcing the majority of population of a province into a country they don't want makes sense.

LOL!

coughovo

[minionofmidas]

Is there a historical cause for the Catholic concentrations around the Loch?

Poor soil/bogland around a lot of the shores discouraged Protestant settlement.  Also Lough Neagh was and I believe is still owned by the Lord(s) Shaftesbury.  For hundreds of years it was also crown and private aristocratic fishing land which would discourage large scale business fishing ventures.

Thanks!

[patrick1]

Is there a historical cause for the Catholic concentrations around the Loch?

Poor soil/bogland around a lot of the shores discouraged Protestant settlement.  Also Lough Neagh was and I believe is still owned by the Lord(s) Shaftesbury.  For hundreds of years it was also crown and private aristocratic fishing land which would discourage large scale business fishing ventures.

Thanks!

^Interesting stories on the Shafetsburys lately. Several years back the eldest was murdered by his fourth wife and his brother in law in France, then the 30 year old son dropped dead and I think the current is some rave club DJ.  That is the one thing I hate about aristocracy is that these jokers held so much power for centuries.  You weren't allowed and still aren't in some places to hunt or fish on "their land".  The aristocracy is also another reason why the clear delineation along sectarian lines is relatively recent.  The dissenters and many yeoman were screwed just as hard by the absentee aristocracy.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

I seem to remember that there was supposed to be some sort of border review a few years later that was shelved because it'd have been unacceptable to both sides.

The original 1921 border was only meant to be temporary under the Anglo-Irish agreement; as the boundary commission was meant to sort out the imperfections of the border. We should remember that Fermanagh and I think - Derry County Councils declared themselves part of the republic during the 1919-1921 war and were then neglected by the free state government, in part because they figured that they gain at least most of Fermanagh, South Armagh and Derry City under the boundary commission. Apparently it never occured to Cosgrave, et al that they could lose the Inishowen penisulla in Donegal or that the commission would turn out to be a cowardly, timid body.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Also I'd point out as Lewis did that there had a long Scottish Presence in what is now Antrim since well before the Ulster Plantation (indeed the word "scot" comes from Scoti; a latin word for Irish. The original Scots were migrants from Ulster which took over the region from the Picts in historically obscure circumstances).

Also I'd quote in complete agreement with Al:

You shouldn't support it, considering that most people in Ulster are barely Irish in the first place.

How so? If this is a reference to the Scottish ancestry of many of them, well, the Ulster plantation was well before any serious western colonisation of America. This would presumably make you "barely American in the first place". Or maybe you just mean that they don't fit into the commercialised version of Oirishness peddled in the States these days and which has very little to do with the real thing...