Should Éamon de Valera have offered condolences over Hitler's death?

[Tetro Kornbluth]

You talk an amazing amount of sh!te BRTD, explain to me how exactly De Valera was a fascist?

In regards to the question, no but it was purely symbolic anyway. If you must criticize him (and De Valera was certainly a moderate in terms of Irish opinion towards the war, the IRA were typically Pro-German for example this is despite being essentially a communist front in the 1930s. Google Sean Russell for Lolz.) then talk about how he rejected jewish refugees from Europe from entering the country and sending them back to the mainland, DESPITE the fact that the Chief Rabbi here and others were well aware of what was going on (I have a document somewhere from the Chief Rabbi in Dublin claiming the Jews in Europe were being prepared from extermination, this in 1941/2 iirc). One should note though that Ireland was hardly typical in this at the time; I think Sweden did the same time as did alot of European countries before the outbreak of war.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Not only was he pro-Hitler, he admired Franco. Sounds very fascist to me.

As sad as it is to admit practically everyone was pro-Franco in Ireland in the 1930s; this was not due alone to sympathy to fascism (though there certainly was alot of that around) but mainly to the intense catholic intellectualism that dominated the country really from independence up until the 1960s. One of the most widespread arguments against entering WWII for instance was that Catholic and Holy Ireland had no interest in war between a liberal state (Britain; liberal here being considered 'bad' and ungodly) allied with an Anticlerical State (France - rather o/c the USSR took this role and extended it) against a Pagan State (Germany).  I mean, even the Labour Party was pro-Franco.

During the Spanish Civil War the largest newspaper in Ireland at the time - The Irish Independent was very, very pro-Franco, I'll give you a few samples (taken admittely from a website not wholly reliable, but basically in the spirit of those I have read in real life - I know someone who has done research into this):

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These were written in the Indo by Charles J. McGuinness and were hardly unusual at the time - he wrote a series of articles for the paper. http://www.sailoroffortune.com/spanish_civil_war.htm

Note the casual anti-semitism... hardly unusual at the time, though Ireland had a tiny Jewish Population which mostly lived in a small district of Dublin along the South Circular Road and Harolds Cross.

See also: http://www.geocities.com/IrelandSCW/ (Yes Geocities I know but it's fairly good... pity most of the information on this is not online. It's a pity I can't anything on the Irish Christian Front, a clerical fascist group supported by a few TDs that wanted Ireland actively campaign for Franco in 1936, as opposed to De Valera's neutrality.)

[Tetro Kornbluth]

...and that is why Ireland is an epic fail country.

Yes because obviously Ireland in 1936 is the exact same country it is today!!1111.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

I don't see a problem with it.  Ireland was neutral in the war and was offering condolences about the death of a foreign head of state.  International diplomacy isn't as simple as it is in a Tarantino movie.

Sweden and Switzerland's leaders didn't do so. In fact near the end of the war they forcibly expelled all the staff at their German embassies. Ireland never did.

On the plus side however Irish banks (in one of their few moral actions) did not accept money made from the profits from concentration camps and slavery nor did we sell Germany Iron ore right throughout the war.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Much of this thread seems to be an attempt at 'one upmanship' with regards what Ireland did during the 30's/40's which is bordering on the infantile and borderline racist. It was a complicated period for every country in Europe and Ireland was no different. As a nation it has, more than most, had to face up to it's past time and time again; particularly recently with a systematic failure of the Irish State to protect the vulnerable. The fact Ireland is capable of doing this and dealing with a tough economic downturn and being treated like a playground by the Pro/Anti European lobby over the referendum without going apesh-t is pretty bloody impressive.

Thank you. Exactly.

EDIT: Oh yeah, sorry for acting like a hack. It's just incredibly frustrating trying to counter BRTD's Crap. (And Jas said it better than me; I didn't even know of that forest. So hey, I learned something at least).

[Tetro Kornbluth]

It's too closely tied to the Catholic Church, in a nutshell. Look at how the soupers (who of course became converts from Catholicism) were treated.

You know, there is a good reason for that. And it's not particularly related to religion as such.

Anyway have you got any criticisms of Ireland BRTD that aren't based on ignorant prejudicial images of the country which hardly have much basis in reality any more?

[Tetro Kornbluth]

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You know in order that one should be fed or at least decently fed one had to convert (or at least look like converting) one's religion (to a religion which had long been that of the hated tithe gathering oppressed) might just enrage *some* people.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

3. This is basically the inverse of my point. Weren't the "soupers" persecuted for being seen as some sort of race traitors to the Catholics? My point though is more that it's foolish to defend people who would've loved to lynch him.

No soupers were not *persecuted* as the levels of state persecution on their side more or less (or rather the side of the protestant preachers). They were shunned however to a greater or lesser degree depending on where one was by their catholic comrades. Now if you can't find why some catholics found souperism offensive in period where the Irish population fell by roughly 2 million people, well then there isn't much point in debating anymore...

[Tetro Kornbluth]

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Clueless = You.

Btw nobody cares about this today (though it is a popular image of the famine).