Homeschooled girl in Germany taken from family

[Middle-aged Europe]

The situation involving Melissa Busekros has been in the headlines ever since the beginning of this month, when the officers arrived at her parents' home with a court order allowing them to take her into custody, "if necessary by force."

Which headlines? This is the first time I hear about a case like that. Seriously.

Considering that this news site doesn't seem to be most neutral on the globe to me, I would recommend to check whether this actually happened and if it happened that it happened in the way it is decribed there.

Is it true that attendance of public schools is mandatory in Germany. It is also true that "homeschooling" is all but non-existing as a political issue. General consensus is that compulsory education is a good thing and cases where people are favoring "homeschooling" are very rare and mostly seen as a obscurity. I'm not sure if a word for "homeschooling" even exists in German language.

In particular, the frequent allusions to Hitler and Nazi Germany in this "article" were hilarious. I was laughing my ass off after reading the last two paragraphs:

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Oh, yeaaaahhh... that evil Jugendamt.



EDIT: Ah, well, I voted "Other" in the poll... "other" in the meaning of "good, even if unintentional, satire".

[Middle-aged Europe]

Is it true that attendance of public schools is mandatory in Germany.

Did I just read that right? Are private schools really illegal in Germany?

No.

In other words, I should have phrased the sentence differently.



EDIT - Longer explanation: There is a type of school in Germany officially called "Ersatzschule" ("Substitute school", "Alternative school"). Those are schools run by private and/or religious organizations who can serve, as the name implies, as an substitute for or alternative to public schools. Students may opt to receive their compulsary education at one of those schools. To achieve this, those private schools have to meet certain academic standards set by the state governments (education is an state issue, therefore the standards are set by the states; this also means that the standards differ from state to state, as do the standards for the public schools; the state ministers of education are trying to make sure that those standards differ not too much from each other through their regular conference).

If the academic standards are met, those schools are officially recognized as a "Ersatzschule". Those schools also may apply for or receive government aid, which means that they're at least partially financed through public money to some extent.

According to the numbers I've found, about 7% of all students are attending one of those schools, instead of a regular public school.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Unlike Old Europe, I actually have heard of cases like that before, though.

I was talking about the specific case.

I googled it before I posted it. Here's another source:
http://www.netzwerk-bildungsfreiheit.de/html/pe_erlangen_en.html

Yes, this source is also quoted in this "article" from WorldNetDaily... actually it seems that WorldNetDaily has based its story on the information from that site and similar websites/organizations.

Frankly, I never heard about a "Netzwerk Bildungsfreiheit" before. Judging from the information they give about themselves they are most likely one of those fringe evangelical pressure groups advocating homeschooling. So, it isn't exactly the most objective source either.

As Colin Wixted pointed out, you probably won't find a report about that particular case in German/European/American mainstream media (despite WorldNetDaily's claim that this case "has been in the headlines ever since the beginning of this month"... but they're probably refering to their own headlines here).

My take is that this might be based on a true story, but that the facts are highly exaggerated and distorted by these pressure groups in order to use it for their goals... and WorldNetDaily has simply adopted the point of view of those groups. Well, I guess they weren't really bothered to check whether these reports are true or not anyway.

A half-truth is always better than a lie. So take a few bits of truth and mix it with some lies and people will swallow it easier.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Personal sidenote: It's amazing how every time Germany or other European countries tends to differ from America on a specific issue (no homeschooling in Germany for example), it's either seen as a sign of "fascism", "socialism" or "communism".

We are at least trying to limit our baseless accusations towards the United States in that way that you are a people of imperialist warmongers, without permanently switching the ideology you are being accused of.

[Middle-aged Europe]

The fact that homeschooling is illegal in Germany is pretty authoritarian so I did vote fascist.

Yeah, but that's just considered "normal" in Germany. Asking an German why homeschooling is illegal is almost the same as if you ask him why driving drunk is illegal.

The most probable answers would be:
1) Well, it would be a pretty stupid idea to allow it, wouldn't it?
2) Are you insane?
3) What the hell is "homeschooling"?

And don't expect to have the ban on homeschooling be lifted in the next few decades. No (mainstream) party would gain an advantage by advocating against the ban of homeschooling. The respective political party would perhaps gain between 0.1% and 0.5% of votes... but might even lose more votes than that because of wasting their time with the adoption of a an obscure fringe issue. So, the main problem is: Insufficient demand for homeschooling.


And before the "socialist" or "fascist" culture in Germany is held responsible, keep in mind that we are the country which succesfully resisted any government effort to hold a census since 1987 (!).   The next one is planned for 2012 on a more limited level, we'll see how that one pans out.

Another example which comes to my mind: Perhaps to the immense pleasure of obebo, prostitution is legal here... something that isn't common in the fascist police state of yours. Isn't that pretty authoritarian? No, I guess many Americans would say to a proposal like that: "Well, it would be a pretty stupid idea to allow it, wouldn't it?" or "Are you insane?".

So, it's pretty easy to scream "facism!" every time there's a (cultural-based?) difference between our countries.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Ah, and just to add a few more shades of grey (and perhaps irony)... this is a case which happened (provided it did happen) in Bavaria. That's  the same Bavaria which is governed by the CSU, which is the political party known for its vehement fight for the right  to display the Christian cross in the schoolrooms of public schools... a fight wich was successfully fought so far.

So, if we assume this case is true (I have certain doubts there), christian conservatives are "persecuated" by other christian conservatives here.

[Middle-aged Europe]

The point of this thread is not to criticize Germany. The point is to criticize excessive government intrusion into the private lives of the people, wherever it occurs. The United States also is guilty of similar intrusions into the lives of its citizens. I post those too whenever I find them.   

Then quote a more credible source please... e.g. something more "mainstream", be it from more a conservative or a more liberal POV, but at least something credible.

The way this WorldNetDaily article was written I never knew which part they had invented, which part was true and which part was exaggerated or distorted. Not to mention that their article was almost wholly based on "facts" they obtained from organizations and pressure groups advocating homeschooling, which might not be the most objective source in the first place.

So, as I said, maybe it's true or maybe it's not... if it is based on a true story I suspect that the case was exaggerated and distorted to make the whole thing look more "evil" or more outrageous.

Well, I will leave it with that now...

[Middle-aged Europe]

True in some way, but not entirely. I agree that it´s considered "normal" by the German and also, in my case, the Austrian population, that students go to public schools. But does it have to be this way ? Not necessarily in my opinion. We could still burn witches and open up KZs. That was thought to be "normal" back then by lots of people.

I wouldn't exactly say that compulsary education in public (or state-recognized private) schools is comparable to the Holocaust.

The majority is not always right.

But in this case we're talking about a 95% to 99% majority... which means that in the eyes of most politicians and parties there's no point in changing the current laws. This was my explanation why the issue of homeschooling was handled this way for the last decades and why it will be handled this way in the coming decades.

[Middle-aged Europe]

OK http://www.netzwerk-bildungsfreiheit.de/html/pe_erlangen_en.html

Yeah, you already posted that link a few days ago and I wrote a rebuttal to that too. Go to page 2 of this thread.


Also read again what I have written on this page:

Not to mention that their article was almost wholly based on "facts" they obtained from organizations and pressure groups advocating homeschooling, which might not be the most objective source in the first place.

When I'm talking about "credible mainstream sources" I have something more in mind like CNN, the Washington Post, the Washington Times, the Wallstreet Journal, the New York Times... in Germany Der Spiegel, Die Zeit, Süddeutsche Zeitung, Die Welt... not a tiny evangelical pressure group advocating homeschooling.

[Middle-aged Europe]

@David S.

1) No need to be pissed or to get sarcastic.

2) We might be both from Germany, but I'm not Lewis. So, don't blame him for the content of my postings.

3) The WorldNetDaily article you posted first, obviously included some flat out lies... for example the ridiculous claim that "a false accusation of neighbors is sufficient" for the Jugendamt to take away children from their parents. In fact, as Lewis pointed out, the Jugendamt is often accused to be either unwilling or unable to act quick enough (or to act at all) in cases of child abuse etc.

4) Conclusion: It's unclear which of the claims in the WorldNetDaily article are made up and which might be true. But we at least know for sure, that at least parts of the article were made up.

5) The Netzwerk Bildungsfreiheit link you posted then is a press release from an evangelical pressure group advocating homeschooling... which might not be the most objectice source. In addition, the WorldNetDaily article seems to be heavily based on the information from this and similar groups. In fact this same Netzwerk Bildungsfreiheit press release was quoted in the WorldNetDaily article. So, there is a danger of getting caught in a circular logic: The WorldNetDaily article is supposed to be true, because it has quoted the Netzwerk Bildungsfreiheit press relase. And the Netzwerk Bildungsfreiheit press release is supposed to be true, because WorldNetDaily used it as a source for its article. A says that B says the truth, because B says that A says the truth.

6) As a third source you posted a link to an op-ed editorial taken from a Belgian right-wing blog (not exactly a mainstream source either) edited by Paul Belien. After some research I found out that Belien is homeschooling his own children too and that he claims that he is "persecuted" by the Belgian state because of this. So, we have basically the same problem like with the Netzwerk Bildungsfreiheit press release here. All sources originate from groups, organizations or individuals heavily (or even personally) in favor of homeschooling, who claim that they're persecuted by the authorities. (Granted, it might have been a mistake on my part to mention the Washington Times as a credible mainstream source. My bad.)

7) So, your three sources are: 1) A press release from a pressure group advocating homeschooling, 2) a article, which is based on information obtained from the aforementioned and similar groups, 3) an editorial taken from a blog edited by someone who is favoring homeschooling for his own children. All I'm saying is that it would be nice to hear the other side of the story or at least a more objective or un-biased assessment of this case. You know what I'm talking about? Something... neutral. Something written by someone who doesn't happen to be an pro-homeschooling advocate. The NUMBER of articles isn't so important as it is the quality and the credibility. You will probably find dozens of articles on the web claiming some evil conspiracy was behind 9/11. Does that mean whose articles are true?

[Middle-aged Europe]

But let's take a closer look at the editorial from Belien's blog:

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Um, I would like to know what Belien's source was. I hope it was not the WorldNetDaily article and the Netzwerk Bildungsfreiheit press release. At least it sounds very similar.

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First, that's an argument which did appear in the WorldNetDaily article too. You may notice that I'm getting suspicious.

Second, what's this obsession with Hitler and the Nazis anyway? Because Hitler was evil and he outlawed home-schooling, bans on home-schooling are evil? Sounds like a example of Goodwin's Law too me. It's true that home-schooling was illegal under Hitler too. But as far as I know the form of compulsary education which is in place in Germany today is based on the German consitution (Article 7 Sections 1 & 2, to be precise) which came into effect in 1949. A constitution which was approved by the Western occupation powers (United States, United Kingdom, Germany). It's interesting that everybody is so obsessed with Hitler, but no one is asking the question why General Eisenhower for example, as military governor of the American occupation zone, didn't see it as necessary to lift the ban on  homeschooling back then. Which leads us to the question: Was Dwight D. Eisenhower a fascist?

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True. That's because the overwhelming majority opposes it.

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Oh, no, not Hitler again. The message here is probably: Germans accept the current ban on homeschooling only because they're a people which obey orders unquestioningly... like they did under Hitler.
Well, I don't know whether I should feel insulted or amused, but in the end it's an argument too stupid to be insulted. So: LOL.

As I pointed out earlier, Germany is the country which held its last census in 1987 (three years before unfication!)... no government since then bothered to hold a new census, because they figured it's not worth the trouble. Another example would be Germany's military engagement abroad (e.g. Afghanistan) which is seen very critical by many Germans. In fact, the Schröder government almost broke apart over this issue back in 2001 (basically the same problem Prodi is facing in Italy recently). Or what about the anti-Hartz IV protests a few years ago? So, do we obey orders unquestioningly? Well, not really...

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As Lewis pointed out at the start of the discussions, German courts and authorities tend to pretty lenient in cases of home-schooling. For example, last year there was a case of a tiny christan-fundamentalist sect in Bavaria, whose members wanted to home-school their children (because of their opposition to the evolution theory and sex education). In the end the Bavarian state government and this religious group agreed on a compromise: This sect was allowed to found their own private school, where the children could be teached their way. (As I mentioned earlier, in Germany we have those state-recognized "subsitute schools" run by private organization or religious groups. Plus, those subsitute schools may apply for and receive public money.)

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Ah, well, here we have the same problem with the case we're discussing: What are Belien's sources? As Lewis said, German courts are usually pretty lenient. Which of course means that there could be exceptions from this rule...

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Ah, now the German school system isn't only compared with the Nazi school system, but also with the Soviet school system. Well, I can say one thing: I know first hand that the current school system is different from the school system which was place in East Germany.

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Ah, that seems to be a case similar to the Bavarian one I was just mentioning. As I said in this thread earlier, we have a federal system here. The standards for public and private schools tend to differ from state to state. They should try it in Bavaria or an similar state (Paderborn is located in Northrhine-Westphalia). If it all, this might prove that the ban on homeschooling in NRW is "fascist", but not in all of Germany. But it's interesting that Beilin mentions a case where a religious group was forbidden to found their own private school, but does not mention this Bavarian case where it was indeed allowed. This shows how objective the author really is.

[Middle-aged Europe]

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As I pointed out earlier: There as a pretty wide consensus in German society that compulsary education is a good thing and that it should stay the way it is.

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Great, Hitler AGAIN... The rest of this sentence is Beilin's personal opinion, which he is free to state. But otherwise I don't know what relevance it has.

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Well, what a nonsense. Nobody is charged with high treason in Germany. The last time this happened was probably really under Hitler. And usually, only neo-Nazis are charged with "Volksverhetzung". So this Stucher is either a Nazi himself who happens to advocate homeschooling (which would be kind of ironic since pro-homeschooling advocates like to compare the current school system with the Nazi school system) or it was made up by Beilin. Probably the latter. To make one thing clear: Homeschooling is illegal in Germany. Advocating the legalization of homeschooling is not. Otherwise this evengelical pressure group, WorldNetDaily and David S. mentioned, wouldn't exist.

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ROFLMAO

Well, the primary reason why children are supposed to be teached in either public or state-recognized private schools is that certain academic standards in their education should be met. I think everybody knows the usual arguments which are brought forward against homeschooling. That's why it is illegal in Germany.

Second, it is supposed to PREVENT children from getting indoctrinated. This WorldNetDaily article states that "the German Embassy has indicated they cannot allow 'parallel cultures.'" "Parallel culture" is actually a term which is normally applied to Muslim immigrants in Germany. So, homeschooling is banned to prevent children from getting indoctrinated by their fundamentalist parents (be it Islamic oder Christian fundamentalists). I would like to know what would WorldNetDaily write when homeschooling is legalized in Germany and Muslims start pull their children out of the public school system.

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Well, a lot of people from the former Soviet Union live in Germany. Most of them do not want to homeschool their children. Most people who want to homeschool their children also tend to be Germans and not immigrants from the former Soviet Union. So what kind of retarded argument is this? I LIVE in former East Germany (which was part of the former Soviet bloc), and I have never met one here who would have opposed compulsary education. If it all, I would suspect that the number pro-homeschooling advocates is actually higher in West Germany.

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It's true that compulsary education is considered normal and nobody is worried by it. But whose who "opt out of the state system" aren't exactly seen with suspicion. Most Germans simply think that they're stupid.

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As I mentioned earlier, Hitler's 1938 schooling bill was in effect until 1945. The current compulsary education is based on the German Basic Law of 1949 as well as the respective state consitutions passed between 1945 and 1949... which were approved by the then-governments of the US, the UK and France.

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Well, that last part is basically a rant against the EU and the UN, combined with additional comparisons with Nazi and Soviet education systems.

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Ah, at last we see what the goal of this editorial is.



Bottomline is that I won't take an editiorial claiming that the reason for the unpopularity of homeschooling in Germany is that "Germans tend to obey orders unquestioningly" very serious.