Parliament passed Boris’s Brexit deal

[OSR stands with Israel]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-politics-50870939


This is great news

[brucejoel99]

Sheer insanity is nothing worth celebrating.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Sheer insanity is nothing worth celebrating.

I think the UK should have closer economic ties to the US than EU as well and that will be more beneficial and the US won’t violate UK sovereignty unlike the EU

[brucejoel99]

Sheer insanity is nothing worth celebrating.

I think the UK should have closer economic ties to the US than EU as well and that will be more beneficial and the US won’t violate UK sovereignty unlike the EU

Disregarding your nonsensical assertion about the EU violating the UK's sovereignty (which is nationalist bulls**t), what you "think" doesn't matter. The facts matter. And the facts are that the EU has done more for the UK's economy than the US ever could/would.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

The people have spoken. This might have ended differently if Labour wasn't determined to carry out their murder-suicide pact.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Sheer insanity is nothing worth celebrating.

I think the UK should have closer economic ties to the US than EU as well and that will be more beneficial and the US won’t violate UK sovereignty unlike the EU

Disregarding your nonsensical assertion about the EU violating the UK's sovereignty (which is nationalist bulls**t), what you "think" doesn't matter. The facts matter. And the facts are that the EU has done more for the UK's economy than the US ever could/would.

Nationalist bs lol .

How is Foreign nations passing laws that override laws that you passed not violating sovereignty
 
How is allowing foreign nations to decide your immigration policy not a violation of sovereignty



All the EU should be is NAFTA if Europe , nothing more nothing less

[BP🌹]

Sheer insanity is nothing worth celebrating.

I think the UK should have closer economic ties to the US than EU as well and that will be more beneficial and the US won’t violate UK sovereignty unlike the EU

Disregarding your nonsensical assertion about the EU violating the UK's sovereignty (which is nationalist bulls**t), what you "think" doesn't matter. The facts matter. And the facts are that the EU has done more for the UK's economy than the US ever could/would.

Nationalist bs lol .

How is Foreign nations passing laws that override laws that you passed not violating sovereignty
 
How is allowing foreign nations to decide your immigration policy not a violation of sovereignty

TIL that the UK was forced into being part of the EU.

[Frodo]

I expected nothing less.  That's what this last election was all about, the dominant sentiment being to just get Brexit over and done with so we can all move on. 

[brucejoel99]

The people have spoken. This might have ended differently if Labour wasn't determined to carry out their murder-suicide pact.

Losing an election doesn't mean that you have to sit quietly on the sideline while the winning party makes decisions that you believe are plainly wrong. That's not how democracy works. The opposition is represented in Parliament & is part of the governing structure, just like the winning party. The opposition has the right to participate in, object to, & even block government decisions (if they can), even if they weren't the winning party. Anything less would be undemocratic.

Sheer insanity is nothing worth celebrating.

I think the UK should have closer economic ties to the US than EU as well and that will be more beneficial and the US won’t violate UK sovereignty unlike the EU

Disregarding your nonsensical assertion about the EU violating the UK's sovereignty (which is nationalist bulls**t), what you "think" doesn't matter. The facts matter. And the facts are that the EU has done more for the UK's economy than the US ever could/would.

Nationalist bs lol .

How is Foreign nations passing laws that override laws that you passed not violating sovereignty
 
How is allowing foreign nations to decide your immigration policy not a violation of sovereignty



All the EU should be is NAFTA if Europe , nothing more nothing less

Lol "passing laws that override laws that you passed?" "Decide your immigration policy?" What!?

Seriously, what the hell are you talking about?

Every significant British government decision, from military & defense spending (the wars in Iraq/Afghanistan/"on terror") & healthcare (nationalized, privatized, semi-privatized/single-payer) to welfare (child & unemployment benefits, social housing, disability payments) & foreign aid (on which Britain is, by far, the biggest spender on in the EU), is under the absolute control of the British government. Beyond the (comparatively) minuscule EU contribution, every Treasury expenditure, every government priority, & every organ of state is controlled purely & entirely domestically.

If the EU is a sovereignty violator, then it's the nicest, least involved, least intrusive sovereignty violator in history. And no, free movement doesn't violate sovereignty; at least, no more so than the Common Travel Area with Ireland violates the UK's sovereignty, or the Trans-Tasman Travel Agreement violates Australian sovereignty.

Of course, you can legitimately argue that the EU has perhaps adopted excessive laws & regulations, but you just can't argue that those decisions were somehow taken without British participation, in such a fashion that Britain, through the exercising of its sovereignty, agreed to participate.

Sheer insanity is nothing worth celebrating.

I think the UK should have closer economic ties to the US than EU as well and that will be more beneficial and the US won’t violate UK sovereignty unlike the EU

Disregarding your nonsensical assertion about the EU violating the UK's sovereignty (which is nationalist bulls**t), what you "think" doesn't matter. The facts matter. And the facts are that the EU has done more for the UK's economy than the US ever could/would.

Nationalist bs lol .

How is Foreign nations passing laws that override laws that you passed not violating sovereignty
 
How is allowing foreign nations to decide your immigration policy not a violation of sovereignty

TIL that the UK was forced into being part of the EU.

tHe Uk jOiNeD tHe Eu UnDeR fAlSe PrEtEnSeS; tHeY wErE tRiCkEd InTo JoInInG aNd ThE rUlEs ChAnGeD aLoNg ThE wAy.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Yeah, the people have spoken and deserve to get what they voted for, but this is objectively terrible for the UK. Oh well.

[Lord Halifax]

Yeah, the people have spoken and deserve to get what they voted for, but this is objectively terrible for the UK. Oh well.

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard"

[CumbrianLefty]

Slow handclap at this point for the "People's Vote" campaign and fellow "STOP BREXIT" obsessives - acting for three and a half years as if 17.5 million people are total unpersons (not to mention seeing the Labour leadership, rather than the party actually in government, as the prime enemy) turns out to actually have consequences.

Who knew?

[Antonio the Sixth]

Yeah, the people have spoken and deserve to get what they voted for, but this is objectively terrible for the UK. Oh well.

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard"

It is. And that's fine, it's how it should be, even if sometimes it sucks.

[Former President tack50]

To be fair, Brexit with a deal will not be anywhere as destructive as no deal Brexit. Especially given there's a transition period until the end of 2020 if I am not mistaken.

However, if Boris reaches the end of 2020 without a permanent deal, the consequences of crashing out of the EU will still be extremely bad, almost as bad as no deal was in the first place.

Nationalist bs lol .

How is Foreign nations passing laws that override laws that you passed not violating sovereignty
 
How is allowing foreign nations to decide your immigration policy not a violation of sovereignty

All the EU should be is NAFTA if Europe , nothing more nothing less

Well, the UK agreed to the treaties that give the EU legislative power in certain areas. If it doesn't like it, it is free to leave (which it has done)

Also, immigration policy is still a policy done by national governments and not the EU. The UK could close its borders to all immigrants tomorrow if it wanted. The only exception being EU immigrants, but most of the anti-immigration people probably aren't worried by EU immigrants.

Finally I disagree with the concept that the EU should be limited to a free trade agreement though I understand why some want that. And again the UK was free to leave, which it has. But there are more downsides than upsides. "Sovereignty" is not edible I'm afraid.

[parochial boy]

At the end of the day, I Think the real villain is still the entitled posh boy who, so insulated from its real life consequences, treated politics as if it was nothing more than a team sport and decided to hold a referendum on a vague and abstract offer - thus making a parody of how referendums are actually supposed to work, and allowing the option of leaving to be presented as all things to everybody, no matter how irrealistic, absurd and contradictory those were.

[CumbrianLefty]

To be fair, Brexit with a deal will not be anywhere as destructive as no deal Brexit. Especially given there's a transition period until the end of 2020 if I am not mistaken.

However, if Boris reaches the end of 2020 without a permanent deal, the consequences of crashing out of the EU will still be extremely bad, almost as bad as no deal was in the first place.

Nationalist bs lol .

How is Foreign nations passing laws that override laws that you passed not violating sovereignty
 
How is allowing foreign nations to decide your immigration policy not a violation of sovereignty

All the EU should be is NAFTA if Europe , nothing more nothing less

Well, the UK agreed to the treaties that give the EU legislative power in certain areas. If it doesn't like it, it is free to leave (which it has done)

Also, immigration policy is still a policy done by national governments and not the EU. The UK could close its borders to all immigrants tomorrow if it wanted. The only exception being EU immigrants, but most of the anti-immigration people probably aren't worried by EU immigrants.

Finally I disagree with the concept that the EU should be limited to a free trade agreement though I understand why some want that. And again the UK was free to leave, which it has. But there are more downsides than upsides. "Sovereignty" is not edible I'm afraid.

You may be surprised.....

[Lord Halifax]

Also, immigration policy is still a policy done by national governments and not the EU. The UK could close its borders to all immigrants tomorrow if it wanted. The only exception being EU immigrants, but most of the anti-immigration people probably aren't worried by EU immigrants.

It's Eastern European labour migrants that's perceived as the biggest problem.

[politicallefty]

Yeah, the people have spoken and deserve to get what they voted for, but this is objectively terrible for the UK. Oh well.

That's my view as well. I do wish the people of the UK well, but sometimes people really do have to live the consequences of their actions to fully realize them. I've said something similar about the abortion debate here in the States. People can only light their hair on fire for so long. It's not enough for most to just warn of consequences.

[Former President tack50]

Also, immigration policy is still a policy done by national governments and not the EU. The UK could close its borders to all immigrants tomorrow if it wanted. The only exception being EU immigrants, but most of the anti-immigration people probably aren't worried by EU immigrants.

It's Eastern European labour migrants that's perceived as the biggest problem.

Well, in that case that is a massive difference compared to the rest of Europe, where other EU migrants are seen as ranging from "not great but still decent" to "quite good" and most of the focus is on African and Middle Eastern immigrants

Tbh I wonder why the UK would have such a difference in public opinion compared to the rest of the continent.

[Omega21]

Also, immigration policy is still a policy done by national governments and not the EU. The UK could close its borders to all immigrants tomorrow if it wanted. The only exception being EU immigrants, but most of the anti-immigration people probably aren't worried by EU immigrants.

It's Eastern European labour migrants that's perceived as the biggest problem.

Well, in that case that is a massive difference compared to the rest of Europe, where other EU migrants are seen as ranging from "not great but still decent" to "quite good" and most of the focus is on African and Middle Eastern immigrants

Tbh I wonder why the UK would have such a difference in public opinion compared to the rest of the continent.

Well its not entirely so, I think. From purely anecdotal observations, from both Germany and the UK in equal measure interestingly, EU migrants from Southern and Western Europe (i.e. the Original EEC States) are generally collectively seen quite positive, Poles (contrary to the Polski sklep stereotypes) and other 2004 Accession States are seen as a mixed bag but generally unproblematic, while Bulgarians and Romanians (the 2009 States) do not have a very positive reception, one that is very much in line with the Albanians etc. who are of course not EU states, but many of which came illegally due to the Visa requirements being lifted with the EU Association agreement. The negative reception to the 2009 States, has, I am sure, a lot to do with the Influx of Roma specifically. Most West Europeans are Ignorant of the ethnic difference there, and the fact that in the Sadly too common cases of Crime, especially Prostitution, the Media reports the Citizenship only, of course, which is Romanian/Bulgarian. The Roma also generally seem to have a big problem with Adapting to Western lifestyles, for example throwing their garbage on the street, etc, something that does not seem to apply to ethnic Romanians/Bulgarians. Not that one can just blame the Roma for all this of course - they experience terrible discrimination at home.

It should be said that the UK received a far larger Influx of People from the 2004 Accession States, than Germany/France ever did. The UK, by its sovereign decision, decided not to implement transitional restrictions as most EU countries did (Poles needed Work Permits in Germany for five Years). The British press developed a narrative that Britain was tricked at the EU Summit into doing this - which became another Dolchstoßlegende for the Eurosceptics.

And another thing that should be noted is that Britain recieves "better" non-eu migration than Germany/France etc., thanks to the English Language, especially Indians who work in IT/Medicine etc. Thanks to non-participation in Schengen and its Island Status Britain gets very few asylum seekers, and those that is does get, are the ones that have the money, to fake Passports and Visas, or can afford the Boat to take them across the Channel (mostly quite well educated Iranians). While in Germany practically the Skilled Migration we get only from the EU. So basically most people here see the Arabs and think, oh well, the Poles are pretty great, arent they? Its also the Reason why the UK in Polling has actually, despite the common narrative, always been the Country in Europe with one of the most positive Opinions of Immigration, while Germany/France have been one of the most negative.

Lastly to comment on the Issue of the Thread itself, I am pretty happy. Sad to see the Brits go, they were a great counterweight to the French, but Brexit was keeping the EU hostage for too long. Scotland will be interesting, because the sad Irony for the Scots is that the harder the Brexit, the more unfeasible Scottish Independence and Rejoining the EU becomes. NI on the other hand has a very quick way to EU Accession.

Don't ex-YU migrants constitute a larger percentage of the population in Germany than Bulgarians, Albanians and Romanians tho?

[jaymichaud]

I love it. Finally.

[Omega21]

Don't ex-YU migrants constitute a larger percentage of the population in Germany than Bulgarians, Albanians and Romanians tho?

Correct, although that is separate Issue from the EU of course, as most of them came as refugees during the 90s.

In terms of current Immigration however, the Nation from which Germany recieves the most Immigrants nowadays (ahead of Syria even) is Romania. And they are very much a mixed bag, quite a few educated, many not. So its not like many on the Continent cannot Sympathize with the concerns of many Brits regarding this Issue, its just the Approach is stupid. Instead they should just enforce the Measures already in the EU treaties, such as Deportation after 3 Months of Unemployment and adjustment of Child Benefit to Standards in the Home Country (offered to UK in Camerons reforms), and thats Exactly what many Central EU countries have been trying to do.

The Issue is that, like with the Transitional Restrictions, the British Government loved talking tough for the Tabloids, but never actually properly Implemented the restrictions on FOM that were expressly allowed by the EU treaties.

Thanks for the info!

Last off-topic question, what was the sentiment like about Bulgaria and Romania joining the EU back then?

When looked at Economics, Infrastructure, and Unemployment, both were comparable to Serbia today (Bulgaria was even worse in some aspects, and Romania as well), so I'm curious to know the actual sentiment in Germany from a German's perspective.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Sheer insanity is nothing worth celebrating.

I think the UK should have closer economic ties to the US than EU as well and that will be more beneficial and the US won’t violate UK sovereignty unlike the EU

Why should the US want to have closer economic ties to the UK than to the EU?

The EU will have seven times the population and six times the GDP of the UK.  Moreover, we're already running a trade surplus with the UK, so it makes more sense or us to focus on our trade deficit with the EU, which will be even larger now that the UK is leaving the EU.  Beyond a trade deal that keeps trade rules with the UK similar after Brexit to what they were before Brexit, there's no reason for the US to worry about UK trade. There certainly is no reason for us to offer the UK a better deal with us than what they had as part of the EU.

[CumbrianLefty]

Sheer insanity is nothing worth celebrating.

I think the UK should have closer economic ties to the US than EU as well and that will be more beneficial and the US won’t violate UK sovereignty unlike the EU

Ah, bless.

[windjammer]

I'm so happy they are finally leaving.
It's like when you are married with someone and that things really don't go well and cannot improve, it's better to divorce and remain in good terms.
The UK has never liked being part of European integration, hesitating all the time. It's better for everyone that they leave rather than remaining and being unhappy.