Israel-Gaza war

[afleitch]

The first international declaration that a Holocaust was occurring was made by the United Nations on December 17 1942. What the Allies could 'do' was very much tied in with the overall military response to the conflict.

They could’ve bombed the railways.  They didn’t because, to put it bluntly, they couldn’t care less about dead Jews.

F-ck sake man. Utterly crass.

I’m sorry you feel that way, but it doesn’t make it any less true.  It wouldn’t have magically solved everything, but it would’ve helped.  Then you have the immigration/asylum restrictions, the post-conviction pardons/huge reductions in the sentences of most Nazis convicted at the subsequent Nuremberg trials to appease Adenauer, the way the British government at best willfully ignored reports about aspects of the Holocaust prior to the liberation of the camps at the end of the war, etc.  Respectfully, the governments and many regular folks in the countries simply didn’t care about dead Jews.  

It’s not crass to say so even if my bluntness offended your personal sensibilities, I’m just being brutally honest.  If Japan hadn’t attacked Pearl Harbor then the US never would’ve gotten involved, if Germany hadn’t attacked the USSR then the latter never would’ve gotten involved (and Stalin was a vicious anti-Semite himself), and if Germany had stopped after Czechoslovakia, then Britain and France never would’ve gotten involved (and re: France: that’s without even getting into Vichy).  Every single Jew in Germany, Austria, and Czechoslovakia could’ve been gassed and the allied governments wouldn’t have lifted a finger.  They might’ve made disapproving statements, but little more than that.  To pretend otherwise is extremely naive at best.

I see you've walked it back a bit.

Here's the issue; railway infrastructure is one of the easiest and pieces of infrastructure to rebuild and also one of the hardest to precisely target. The Bielefeld Viaduct for example, was a vital piece, if not the most vital piece of railway infrastructure. Fifteen attacks over four years didn't destroy it.

'Bombing the railways' would require a knowledge of where the camps were and what railways were used to transport those incarcerated. That information was patchy at best, to as late as spring 1944.

As for targeting the camps themselves when their location became known before their liberation people such as David Ben-Gurion are on record as opposing bombing places where there were concentrations of Jews.

The idea that the Allies didn't care about 'dead Jews' as part of the overall plan of liberating Europe is an unserious statement.

[lfromnj]

On a second point, long range bombers didn't really get there till the end of the war.
B29's weren't even used over Germany and only reached Japan by last few months. The B17 bomber had a range of roughly 2000 miles which is double the distance of London to Warsaw but that's cutting it close and definitely not what you want to fly with.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

I’m at work, so I’ll respond to this later, but I’m genuinely not sure what you think I walked back or where you think I said to bomb areas with large concentrations of Jews like the camps themselves.  Nor did I claim bombing the railways would’ve fixed everything.  It’s one example of many of an action the allies didn’t take because they couldn’t care less how many Jews died.  Another example, as others have noted, is that they wouldn’t give refuge to Jews fleeing Europe or at least, did so only rarely.  It’s profoundly unserious and at best uninformed to claim the allies gave a rat’s a** about dead Jews while the Holocaust was happening.  If you want to argue they couldn’t have done far, far, far more had they actually cared one iota whether every Jew in Europe died, that’s your business, but you’re wrong. 

With all due respect, the Jewish people were on largely our own during the Holocaust aside from the Righteous Among Nations and to suggest otherwise is naive and extremely ignorant at best.  The Holocaust objectively had nothing whatsoever to do with the Allies decision to go to war nor with their plan/strategy to liberate Europe.  It was incidental to both these things as far as they were concerned.  Every Jew in Germany, Austria, and Czechslovakia could’ve been gassed and if the Nazis stopped at Czechoslovakia and Pearl Harbor never happened, no one would’ve lifted a finger.

Btw, I see you completely ignored the second paragraph.  Ignoring facts simply because they don’t support your preferred narrative is not a great look

[lfromnj]

I think theres a couple of statements to put it.

1. Democratic nations did not do enough to take in Jewish refugees before the War began.
2. They let Nazi Germany remilitarize at a rapid pace.
3. The Allies goal during the war itself wasn't to directly stop the Holocaust which they knew was happening but
4. Im not sure what exactly the Allies could have between 1942 to 1945 to exactly stem the Holocaust beyond what was done. The best way seems to have been to win the war as quickly as possible. It is true the camps could have been bombed but I remain somewhat skeptical of how much bombing them could have reduced Holocaust casualties while at the same time it would also redirect war resources that could have been used to end the war quicker. In the end I can't blame the Jewish people for feeling angry because of the first three points.

[Horus]

Ignoring facts simply because they don’t support your preferred narrative is not a great look

Funny you say this, you seem to have a very specific narrative (guilty until proven innocent, antisemite until proven otherwise) that you refuse to let go of no matter what the modern or historical issue is at hand.

[afleitch]

I think theres a couple of statements to put it.

1. Democratic nations did not do enough to take in Jewish refugees before the War began.
2. They let Nazi Germany remilitarize at a rapid pace.
3. The Allies goal during the war itself wasn't to directly stop the Holocaust which they knew was happening but
4. Im not sure what exactly the Allies could have between 1942 to 1945 to exactly stem the Holocaust. beyond what was done. The best way seems to have been to win the war as quickly as possible. It is true the camps could have been bombed but I remain somewhat skeptical of how much bombing them could have reduced Holocaust casualties while at the same time it would also redirect war resources that could have been used to end the war quicker. In the end I can't blame the Jewish people for feeling angry because of the first three points.

Yes. All these points are valid. They couldn't stop the Holocaust, which they were well aware of, independently of wider war aims.

Part of that (of which my grandfather was part) was stopping the Axis from advancing across Egypt, the Suez and into Mandatory Palestine which the Italians had also been bombing.

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

The fact that the Nazis wanted to conquer most of Europe is kind of a defining feature of the Nazis. Without a constant stream of plunder to fund their war machine, without conquered Polish territory to hide their death camps and without constant expansion taking over major Jewish population centers or unwittingly "recapturing" Jewish refugees who had fled to France, Poland or the Soviet Union there would have been no Holocaust as we know it.

[afleitch]

I’m at work, so I’ll respond to this later, but I’m genuinely not sure what you think I walked back or where you think I said to bomb areas with large concentrations of Jews like the camps themselves.  Nor did I claim bombing the railways would’ve fixed everything.  It’s one example of many of an action the allies didn’t take because they couldn’t care less how many Jews died.  Another example, as others have noted, is that they wouldn’t give refuge to Jews fleeing Europe or at least, did so only rarely.  It’s profoundly unserious and at best uninformed to claim the allies gave a rat’s a** about dead Jews while the Holocaust was happening.  If you want to argue they couldn’t have done far, far, far more had they actually cared one iota whether every Jew in Europe died, that’s your business, but you’re wrong. 

With all due respect, the Jewish people were on largely our own during the Holocaust aside from the Righteous Among Nations and to suggest otherwise is naive and extremely ignorant at best.  The Holocaust objectively had nothing whatsoever to do with the Allies decision to go to war nor with their plan/strategy to liberate Europe.  It was incidental to both these things as far as they were concerned.  Every Jew in Germany, Austria, and Czechslovakia could’ve been gassed and if the Nazis stopped at Czechoslovakia and Pearl Harbor never happened, no one would’ve lifted a finger.

Btw, I see you completely ignored the second paragraph.  Ignoring facts simply because they don’t support your preferred narrative is not a great look

Again examples have been put to you as to why that statement is profoudly false.

I didn't address your second paragraph which you re-iterate here because it is a counter factual.

But if there was no war and no mass German territorial expansion there would have been no Holocaust as we know it. Diplomatic relations, however tense, surrounded by independent and by independent democratic nations, including the exchange of people, diplomats, journalists and civilians that took place regularly between 1933 and 1938 would not have allowed for a secretive mass incarceration or mass slaughter of Jews and other large minority groups.

[Silent Hunter]

But if there was no war and no mass German territorial expansion there would have been no Holocaust as we know it. Diplomatic relations, however tense, surrounded by independent and by independent democratic nations, including the exchange of people, diplomats, journalists and civilians that took place regularly between 1933 and 1938 would not have allowed for a secretive mass incarceration or mass slaughter of Jews and other large minority groups.

Poland wasn't democratic at this point though - it was effectively a military dictatorship. It also was actively hostile to taking in Polish Jews expelled from Germany.

[KaiserDave]

I think a major issue here is the overemphasis on the concentration camps in discussing the Holocaust. But this isn't unique to any one poster, it's highly widespread in the discourse. A substantial portion (I think around one third) of the victims of the Holocaust were shot in the occupied Soviet Union, in what is referred to as the "holocaust by bullets." There is obviously nothing the Allies could have done about that except wage the war to a successful conclusion (and support the Soviet war effort by whatever means they could). Other posters have successfully argued why "just bomb the railroads" isn't a serious proposition, so I won't reiterate their case, I will only say that attempting to prove that bombing the railroads would have made any impact is extremely difficult (and as was stated, utterly impossible prior to mid to late 1944).

As for the larger question about whether Allied leaders cared about Jews and Jewish lives, I think there is certainly a case that they did not, but immigration policies are a much better example of this. The best thing the Allied powers could do to stop the Holocaust once it was underway was win the war, which they did. Lfromnj summarized things nicely.

[KaiserDave]

Bibi is now making up lies in order to justify the invasion. How many allies died fighting the Nazi's? I'm pretty sure that number is somewhere in the millions.

AFpost is a Neo-Nazi account, please do not spread Nazi propaganda outlets here.