Politics and Elections in the Netherlands: coalition agreement presented

[ApatheticAustrian]

i think wilders has by far the best shot but after proving he can't even support an existing center-right coalition.....how could anyone think, he is reponsible enough to lead an administration himself?

like all wilders-like politicans, he detests reponsibility and tries to dodge it as long as possible.

[ApatheticAustrian]

wilders is responsible for the bad image he has got as an ally.

he burned those bridges with conservative and right-wing parties himself.

[ApatheticAustrian]

not only religious conservatism.....also culture.

can be combined...but you can also separate it.

much easier to take on a new culture than a new religion but there are many things in play in europe which work for and against healthy integration.

and ofc the far left and far right are both making the problem worse in different ways.

[ApatheticAustrian]

your logic and your point is sound, david but i think you underestimate the populist moment. dutch seems to be the perfect country for this experiment atm....if other parties are ready to cooperate.

[ApatheticAustrian]

your logic and your point is sound, david but i think you underestimate the populist moment. dutch seems to be the perfect country for this experiment atm....if other parties are ready to cooperate.

I'm sorry, what does this refer to?

ah, sorry....should have quoted.

your long sceptical post about wilder's chances 2 days ago.

[ApatheticAustrian]

to be more out-spoken:

all those right-wing-nutjobs (no offense to their voters) are more or less sociopaths, who are leading their parties like family businesses and whose time is filled with scanalds, personal and political ones.

if you are living on the border of the law and good taste, you sometimes get a milo problem and mood turns against you.

more often, only educated people and politicos freak out, while low info voters either don't care, say everybody does it or - most common - see possible faults as signs of strength.

[ApatheticAustrian]

never forget, trump also dominated the debates he missed and he lost - arguably - 3 times to hillary...not even close.

[ApatheticAustrian]

just googled the FvD, remembered i have read about mister baudet somewhere before, checked some of his stances....and once again stumbled over a russia apologist.

why isn't there a proud, european right-wing party, which is at the same time against radical islam and russia's neo-imperialism? it baffles me.

[ApatheticAustrian]

what the....

i love and hate this last minute vote switching in the netherlands ...most interesting but at the same time confusing for foreigners.

why is CDA gaining so much suddenly?

[ApatheticAustrian]

but Wilders will stay home again.

what the? is the man totally deaf?

at some point a kind of right wing coalition without wilders becomes possible, i figure.

[ApatheticAustrian]

so...this guy is trying to out-culturalist wilders? not sure there is such a big constituency for that message, as long as wilders isn't going down in flames.

[ApatheticAustrian]

The far-right and the far-left both use "neo-liberal" and "neo-con" as synonyms for "jewish". Which is why both extreme-frings groups are the greatest danger for all of us, for liberalism and ofc also for israel.

[ApatheticAustrian]

erdogan is no putin....he is not planning, he is just DOING IT, cause he feels like it, like any random strongman.

there really really is  no reason why the destruction of turkey's liberal tradition and democratic institutions must be promoted in european cities.

[ApatheticAustrian]

Are you talking about a different turkey, or what? The country has never been a liberal country, and has only occasionally been democratic.

compared to nearly every other state in the region, turkey is quite a democratic state and was ofc kind-of liberal since Atatürk. one could ofc make the case that this was kind of liberal autocracy but i am pretty sure this traditions are a major reason why the country is ...or has been...a major powerhouse in the last years, compared to its less liberal and otherwise even more conservative neighbours.

[ApatheticAustrian]

In fact, one could argue Erdogan (especially the latter day Erdogan) is mainly awful because he combines the worst aspects of Turkish nationalism (which Kemal codified), with smug Islamism.

since i have learned a lot about turkey during the last years, i agree with you in many ways, especially regarding the nationalism which is often the course of honor killings and the military supreme command was surely the real power behind the state.

i see it that way:

atatürk in some pushed turkey to become a modern state, without making it liberal in any modern sense of the word.

but...that state was imho well-organized enough, to at least lay the foundation for later things to come..... which were realized in erdogan's early years.

now we live through the rollback, both of erdogan's early pro-democratic reforms AND of atatürk's national-secular vision.

i agree, kemalism is far more guilty than often seen in the west, but i think it still was a solid fundament for better things to come....now we live through the worst of both worlds.

[ApatheticAustrian]

is there any party which wishes to compromise?

[ApatheticAustrian]

how realistic is a "wilders-less" center-right government atm?

i don't know which of the smaller parties, which are going to gain a few seats, would join a liberal/christ-democrat government either than a center-left/left-ish one.

[ApatheticAustrian]

may i ask what's the special thing about SGP...hardcore religious "nuts" in the kind of the israeli religious parties?

[ApatheticAustrian]

i totally agree and understand the "evil right-wing populists are underpolled all the time"-narrative but after brexit and trump the honesty should rise, imho and wilders is not really an outsider anymore, more like a strange uncle of establishment, imho.

and the fall of wilders' party ..which led for a long time...has real, logical reasons, which could be explained.

[ApatheticAustrian]

as long as wilders is wilders "winning" the election hasn't any consequences for the broader political landscape.

[ApatheticAustrian]

just realized Wikileaks was at it again this week.

[ApatheticAustrian]

at which hour is it usually possible to make educated guesses about the final results....10-11 p.m. local time?

[ApatheticAustrian]

the after-effect of 2016 i guess..."we" (democrats worldwide) don't want to become another UK/USA and vice versa.

erdogan could help too.

[ApatheticAustrian]

voting on work days still seems like a horrible concept for me.

[ApatheticAustrian]

I don't know how factual this exit poll is, but here is one:
https://mobile.twitter.com/NLPeilingen/status/842067372001361926

guess that result would confirm the polling.