SR 115-33: Fair Democracy Amendment (Debating)

[Mad Deadly Worldwide Communist Gangster Computer God]

There needs to be something explicitly specifying a minimum number of legislators for a legislative chamber. Personally, I feel 4, but do 3 if that is what can pass. The current language doesn't specify a minimum and could allow the South to have a legislative chamber of only 2 members, which favors the SNP even more than the old 3/2 system did.

The amendment needs to be something that all regions can be in compliance with at all times. The last Parliament in Fremont would not have been legal under a previous proposal, so as long as the regions have flexibility to index their elections to activity, I'm open to changes.

Also, almost forgot: hearing no objection, my amendment is adopted.

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

Amendment. This keeps Fremont's current system in compliance, and allows flexibilty for a genuine lack of interest, while keeping regions from just shutting out evident opposition by reducing the legislature's size.

I will be deferring to Yankee and LT quite a bit, since it's their region we're trying to fix and both have put tremendous effort into resolving these problems. Here's an amendment that requires all legislators to be elected at-large:           

Section 2. Amendment for electoral reform

Section 4 of the Constitution is hereby amended:

1. No regional-administered election shall admit as eligible voters any person having resided in any other region within the fifty-six days prior to the commencement of the election.

2. In addition, no subregional senate election shall admit as eligible voters any person having resided in any other region within the fifty-six days prior to the commencement of the election.

3. Aside from the exceptions as laid out by this section, no region-wide or subregional election may deny any person the right to vote who would, if a federal election were held concurrently, be eligible to vote in such an election.

4. Term lengths for all regional legislators and executives shall not exceed four (4) months.

5. Each legislative body shall be composed of only elected at-large members. If there are 5 or more candidates on the ballot, at least 4 must be elected. Otherwise, at least 3 must be elected. This clause may not be suspended, unless a region adopts a direct democratic system.

[West_Midlander]

Wulfric, I would prefer a 3-seat minimum. I don't know if a 1-2 member legislature could represent a region well.

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

Wulfric, I would prefer a 3-seat minimum. I don't know if a 1-2 member legislature could represent a region well.

Well, I'm not sure a one member legislature would even be legal since we use the plural 'members' here. But, okay, on this issue, your wish is my command. Amendment updated.

[At-Large Senator LouisvilleThunder]

Proposing an amendment which clarifies some potential loophole abuse.

Section 2. Amendment for electoral reform

Section 4 of the Constitution is hereby amended:

1. No regional-administered election shall admit as eligible voters any person having resided in any other region within the fifty-six days prior to the commencement of the election.

2. In addition, no subregional senate election shall admit as eligible voters any person having resided in any other region within the fifty-six days prior to the commencement of the election.

3. Aside from the exceptions as laid out by this section, no region-wide or subregional election may deny any person the right to vote who would, if a federal election were held concurrently, be eligible to vote in such an election.

4. Term lengths for all regional legislators and regional executives shall not exceed four (4) months. Term lengths for all regional legislators shall not exceed three (3) months.

5. Each legislative body shall be composed of only elected at-large members. If there are five (5) or more candidates on the ballot, at least four (4) must be elected. Otherwise, at least three (3) must be elected. This clause may not be suspended, unless a region adopts a universal legislature composed of all registered citizens.

6. Regions shall not deny ballot access to any person who is eligible to vote in federal elections or is not subject to penalty upon criminal conviction.

7. Any regional legislature of four (4) or fewer members shall not amend the constitution of the region and shall not impeach or expel members of the legislature by less than an affirmative unanimous vote its membership.

8. No regional office shall be named President or Vice President.

[reagente]

Is there any particular reason why three month terms are necessary beyond the fact that the proposed Southern constitutional revisions feature a four month term aligned with federal Senate elections and this amendment would frustrate that?

You also might want to give more thought to the word structure in clause 6, since it is either superfluous in light of clause 3, or contradicts clause 1 and 2, depending on how it can be read (and it can be read multiple ways).

Also, just want to point out to the other members of this body that clause 7, as currently written, would require the expelled member to vote for their own expulsion to be valid (for 4 member or fewer legislatures). While perhaps this body doesn't care about how that would impact the South, I'd hope the representatives of Fremont and Lincoln would at least look out for their own region in that regard.

[Mad Deadly Worldwide Communist Gangster Computer God]

I'm going to object to the amendment if it's not fixed.

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

Addressing Concerns:

Section 2. Amendment for electoral reform

Section 4 of the Constitution is hereby amended:

1. No regional-administered election shall admit as eligible voters any person having resided in any other region within the fifty-six days prior to the commencement of the election.

2. In addition, no subregional senate election shall admit as eligible voters any person having resided in any other region within the fifty-six days prior to the commencement of the election.

3. Aside from the exceptions as laid out by this section, no region-wide or subregional election may deny any person the right to vote who would, if a federal election were held concurrently, be eligible to vote in such an election.

4. Term lengths for all regional legislators and regional executives shall not exceed four (4) months.

5. Each legislative body shall be composed of only elected at-large members. If there are five (5) or more candidates on the ballot, at least four (4) must be elected. Otherwise, at least three (3) must be elected. This clause may not be suspended, unless a region adopts a universal legislature composed of all registered citizens.

6. Regions shall not deny ballot access or voting rights to any person eligible under 1./2., even for regional executive/legislative contests or referendums.

7. Any regional legislature shall not amend the constitution of the region and shall not impeach or expel members of the legislature by less than a 2/3rds Affirmative vote of its membership.

8. No regional office shall be named President or Vice President.

[At-Large Senator LouisvilleThunder]

I propose this amendment.

Section 2. Amendment for electoral reform

Section 4 of the Constitution is hereby amended:

1. No regional-administered election shall admit as eligible voters any person having resided in any other region within the fifty-six days prior to the commencement of the election. All persons registered in a region shall have a right to eligiblity for ballot access and election to regional office.

2. In addition, no subregional senate election shall admit as eligible voters any person having resided in any other region within the fifty-six days prior to the commencement of the election. All persons registered in a subregion shall have a right to eligiblity for ballot access and election to the subregional senate seat.

3. Aside from the exceptions as laid out by this section, no region-wide or subregional election may deny any person the right to vote who would, if a federal election were held concurrently, be eligible to vote in such an election.

4. Term lengths for all regional legislators and regional executives shall be prescribed as either three (3) months for both the executive and the legislature or four (4) months for the executive and two (2) months for the legislature.

5. Each legislative body shall be composed of only elected at-large members. If there are five (5) or more candidates on the ballot, at least four (4) must be elected. If there are (6) or more candidates on the ballot, at least five (5) must be elected. Otherwise, at least three (3) must be elected. This clause may not be suspended, unless a region adopts a universal legislature composed of all registered citizens.

6. Any regional legislature of four (4) or fewer members shall only amend the constitution of the region by a unanimous affirmative vote of members and shall not impeach or expel members of the legislature by less than an affirmative unanimous vote of members voting.

7. No regional office shall be named President or Vice President.

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

I withdraw my amendments.

Would the amendment sponsor here modify their amendment as follows?:

I propose this amendment.

Section 2. Amendment for electoral reform

Section 4 of the Constitution is hereby amended:

1. No regional-administered election shall admit as eligible voters any person having resided in any other region within the fifty-six days prior to the commencement of the election. All persons registered in a region shall have a right to eligiblity for ballot access and election to regional office.

2. In addition, no subregional senate election shall admit as eligible voters any person having resided in any other region within the fifty-six days prior to the commencement of the election. All persons registered in a subregion shall have a right to eligiblity for ballot access and election to the subregional senate seat.

3. Aside from the exceptions as laid out by this section, no region-wide or subregional election or referendum may deny any person the right to vote who would, if a federal election were held concurrently, be eligible to vote in such an election.

4. Term lengths for all regional legislators and regional executives shall be prescribed as either three (3) months for both the executive and the legislature or four (4) months for the executive and two (2) months for the legislature.

5. Each legislative body shall be composed of only elected at-large members. If there are five (5) or more candidates on the ballot, at least four (4) must be elected. If there are (6) or more candidates on the ballot, at least five (5) must be elected. Otherwise, at least three (3) must be elected. This clause may not be suspended, unless a region adopts a universal legislature composed of all registered citizens.

6. Any regional legislature of four (4) or fewer members shall only amend the constitution of the region by a unanimous affirmative vote of members and shall not impeach or expel members of the legislature by less than an affirmative unanimous vote of members voting, except the member to be expelled or impeached.

7. No regional office shall be named President or Vice President.

[At-Large Senator LouisvilleThunder]

I withdraw my amendments.

Would the amendment sponsor here modify their amendment as follows?:

I propose this amendment.

Section 2. Amendment for electoral reform

Section 4 of the Constitution is hereby amended:

1. No regional-administered election shall admit as eligible voters any person having resided in any other region within the fifty-six days prior to the commencement of the election. All persons registered in a region shall have a right to eligiblity for ballot access and election to regional office.

2. In addition, no subregional senate election shall admit as eligible voters any person having resided in any other region within the fifty-six days prior to the commencement of the election. All persons registered in a subregion shall have a right to eligiblity for ballot access and election to the subregional senate seat.

3. Aside from the exceptions as laid out by this section, no region-wide or subregional election or referendum may deny any person the right to vote who would, if a federal election were held concurrently, be eligible to vote in such an election.

4. Term lengths for all regional legislators and regional executives shall be prescribed as either three (3) months for both the executive and the legislature or four (4) months for the executive and two (2) months for the legislature.

5. Each legislative body shall be composed of only elected at-large members. If there are five (5) or more candidates on the ballot, at least four (4) must be elected. If there are (6) or more candidates on the ballot, at least five (5) must be elected. Otherwise, at least three (3) must be elected. This clause may not be suspended, unless a region adopts a universal legislature composed of all registered citizens.

6. Any regional legislature of four (4) or fewer members shall only amend the constitution of the region by a unanimous affirmative vote of members and shall not impeach or expel members of the legislature by less than an affirmative unanimous vote of members voting, except the member to be expelled or impeached.

7. No regional office shall be named President or Vice President.

I'll sponsor this and withdraw my previous proposed amendments.

[reagente]

What exactly do Amendments to clauses 1 and 2 accomplish? Is it saying people ineligible to vote regionally according to federal region locking rules nevertheless must be allowed to be elected regionally? People who move regions are allowed to immediately be elected in that region?

I also again ask what is problematic about regional office holders having the same term length as federal senators. Is there a reason for the change beyond "own the South"?

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

What exactly do Amendments to clauses 1 and 2 accomplish? Is it saying people ineligible to vote regionally according to federal region locking rules nevertheless must be allowed to be elected regionally? People who move regions are allowed to immediately be elected in that region?

I also again ask what is problematic about regional office holders having the same term length as federal senators. Is there a reason for the change beyond "own the South"?

Yes

[At-Large Senator LouisvilleThunder]

Assuming the previous amendment has been adopted, I propose some more changes that I've thought about.

Section 2. Amendment for electoral reform

Section 4 of the Constitution is hereby amended:

1. No regional-administered election shall admit as eligible voters any person having resided in any other region within the fifty-six days prior to the commencement of the election. All persons registered in a region shall have a right to eligiblity for ballot access and a right to popular election to regional office.

2. In addition, no subregional senate election shall admit as eligible voters any person having resided in any other region within the fifty-six days prior to the commencement of the election. All persons registered in a subregion shall have a right to eligiblity for ballot access and a right to popular election to the subregional senate seat.

3. Aside from the exceptions as laid out by this section, no region-wide or subregional election or referendum may deny any person the right to vote who would, if a federal election were held concurrently, be eligible to vote in such an election.

4. Term lengths for all regional legislators and regional executives shall be prescribed as either three (3) months for both the executive and the legislature or four (4) months for the executive and two (2) months for the legislature. Any region which combines the executive and the legislature as a parliamentary unit shall have term lengths prescribed as three (3) months. Regional executive and legislative offices may have shorter term lengths than these prescribed in this section.

5. Each legislative body shall be composed of only elected at-large members. If there are five (5) or more candidates on the ballot, at least four (4) must be elected. If there are (6) or more candidates on the ballot, at least five (5) must be elected. Otherwise, at least three (3) must be elected. This clause may not be suspended, unless a region adopts a universal legislature composed of all registered citizens.

6. Any regional legislature of four (4) or fewer members shall only proceed to amend the constitution of the region by a unanimous affirmative vote of members with ratification through a popular referendum of the eligible voters of the region and shall not impeach or expel members of the legislature by less than an affirmative unanimous vote of members voting, except the member to be expelled or impeached.

7. No regional office shall be named President or Vice President.

8. Voting periods in all regional elections and referendums shall be no shorter than a period of seventy-two (72) hours and no longer than 196 hours (196) hours in duration.

9. Aside from the exceptions as laid out by this section, no region shall proceed to amend its constitution without a minimum of two thirds affirmative support of its membership with ratification through a popular referendum by eligible voters of the region.

10. In the instance of a voting booth thread not being posted in time for the scheduled start of a regional election or referendum, the President of Atlasia shall be permitted to authorize the federal administration of a regional election or referendum through an appointed officer or themself.

[Mad Deadly Worldwide Communist Gangster Computer God]

The previous LT amendment is adopted. Senators have 24 hours to object.

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

No objection but I propose the following addition:

Assuming the previous amendment has been adopted, I propose some more changes that I've thought about.

Section 2. Amendment for electoral reform

Section 4 of the Constitution is hereby amended:

1. No regional-administered election shall admit as eligible voters any person having resided in any other region within the fifty-six days prior to the commencement of the election. All persons registered in a region shall have a right to eligiblity for ballot access and a right to popular election to regional office.

2. In addition, no subregional senate election shall admit as eligible voters any person having resided in any other region within the fifty-six days prior to the commencement of the election. All persons registered in a subregion shall have a right to eligiblity for ballot access and a right to popular election to the subregional senate seat.

3. Aside from the exceptions as laid out by this section, no region-wide or subregional election or referendum may deny any person the right to vote who would, if a federal election were held concurrently, be eligible to vote in such an election.

4. Term lengths for all regional legislators and regional executives shall be prescribed as either three (3) months for both the executive and the legislature or four (4) months for the executive and two (2) months for the legislature. Any region which combines the executive and the legislature as a parliamentary unit shall have term lengths prescribed as three (3) months. Regional executive and legislative offices may have shorter term lengths than these prescribed in this section.

5. Each legislative body shall be composed of only elected at-large members. If there are five (5) or more candidates on the ballot, at least four (4) must be elected. If there are (6) or more candidates on the ballot, at least five (5) must be elected. Otherwise, at least three (3) must be elected. This clause may not be suspended, unless a region adopts a universal legislature composed of all registered citizens.

6. Any regional legislature of four (4) or fewer members shall only proceed to amend the constitution of the region by a unanimous affirmative vote of members with ratification through a popular referendum of the eligible voters of the region and shall not impeach or expel members of the legislature by less than an affirmative unanimous vote of members voting, except the member to be expelled or impeached.

7. No regional office shall be named President or Vice President.

8. Voting periods in all regional elections and referendums shall be no shorter than a period of seventy-two (72) hours and no longer than 196 hours (196) hours in duration.

9. Aside from the exceptions as laid out by this section, no region shall proceed to amend its constitution without a minimum of two thirds affirmative support of its membership with ratification through a popular referendum by eligible voters of the region.

10. In the instance of a voting booth thread not being posted in time for the scheduled start of a regional election or referendum, the President of Atlasia shall be permitted to authorize the federal administration of a regional election or referendum through an appointed officer or themself.

11. To allow time for regions to update their procedures and avoid suddenly unstaffing governments, Regions will have until August 25, 2023 to bring themselves into compliance without penalty, and any existing legislators and executives may serve until that time.

[At-Large Senator LouisvilleThunder]

No objection but I propose the following addition:

Assuming the previous amendment has been adopted, I propose some more changes that I've thought about.

Section 2. Amendment for electoral reform

Section 4 of the Constitution is hereby amended:

1. No regional-administered election shall admit as eligible voters any person having resided in any other region within the fifty-six days prior to the commencement of the election. All persons registered in a region shall have a right to eligiblity for ballot access and a right to popular election to regional office.

2. In addition, no subregional senate election shall admit as eligible voters any person having resided in any other region within the fifty-six days prior to the commencement of the election. All persons registered in a subregion shall have a right to eligiblity for ballot access and a right to popular election to the subregional senate seat.

3. Aside from the exceptions as laid out by this section, no region-wide or subregional election or referendum may deny any person the right to vote who would, if a federal election were held concurrently, be eligible to vote in such an election.

4. Term lengths for all regional legislators and regional executives shall be prescribed as either three (3) months for both the executive and the legislature or four (4) months for the executive and two (2) months for the legislature. Any region which combines the executive and the legislature as a parliamentary unit shall have term lengths prescribed as three (3) months. Regional executive and legislative offices may have shorter term lengths than these prescribed in this section.

5. Each legislative body shall be composed of only elected at-large members. If there are five (5) or more candidates on the ballot, at least four (4) must be elected. If there are (6) or more candidates on the ballot, at least five (5) must be elected. Otherwise, at least three (3) must be elected. This clause may not be suspended, unless a region adopts a universal legislature composed of all registered citizens.

6. Any regional legislature of four (4) or fewer members shall only proceed to amend the constitution of the region by a unanimous affirmative vote of members with ratification through a popular referendum of the eligible voters of the region and shall not impeach or expel members of the legislature by less than an affirmative unanimous vote of members voting, except the member to be expelled or impeached.

7. No regional office shall be named President or Vice President.

8. Voting periods in all regional elections and referendums shall be no shorter than a period of seventy-two (72) hours and no longer than 196 hours (196) hours in duration.

9. Aside from the exceptions as laid out by this section, no region shall proceed to amend its constitution without a minimum of two thirds affirmative support of its membership with ratification through a popular referendum by eligible voters of the region.

10. In the instance of a voting booth thread not being posted in time for the scheduled start of a regional election or referendum, the President of Atlasia shall be permitted to authorize the federal administration of a regional election or referendum through an appointed officer or themself.

11. To allow time for regions to update their procedures and avoid suddenly unstaffing governments, Regions will have until August 25, 2023 to bring themselves into compliance without penalty, and any existing legislators and executives may serve until that time.

I would rather give until July 28th instead.

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

Withdrawing earlier version and proposing:

No objection but I propose the following addition:

Assuming the previous amendment has been adopted, I propose some more changes that I've thought about.

Section 2. Amendment for electoral reform

Section 4 of the Constitution is hereby amended:

1. No regional-administered election shall admit as eligible voters any person having resided in any other region within the fifty-six days prior to the commencement of the election. All persons registered in a region shall have a right to eligiblity for ballot access and a right to popular election to regional office.

2. In addition, no subregional senate election shall admit as eligible voters any person having resided in any other region within the fifty-six days prior to the commencement of the election. All persons registered in a subregion shall have a right to eligiblity for ballot access and a right to popular election to the subregional senate seat.

3. Aside from the exceptions as laid out by this section, no region-wide or subregional election or referendum may deny any person the right to vote who would, if a federal election were held concurrently, be eligible to vote in such an election.

4. Term lengths for all regional legislators and regional executives shall be prescribed as either three (3) months for both the executive and the legislature or four (4) months for the executive and two (2) months for the legislature. Any region which combines the executive and the legislature as a parliamentary unit shall have term lengths prescribed as three (3) months. Regional executive and legislative offices may have shorter term lengths than these prescribed in this section.

5. Each legislative body shall be composed of only elected at-large members. If there are five (5) or more candidates on the ballot, at least four (4) must be elected. If there are (6) or more candidates on the ballot, at least five (5) must be elected. Otherwise, at least three (3) must be elected. This clause may not be suspended, unless a region adopts a universal legislature composed of all registered citizens.

6. Any regional legislature of four (4) or fewer members shall only proceed to amend the constitution of the region by a unanimous affirmative vote of members with ratification through a popular referendum of the eligible voters of the region and shall not impeach or expel members of the legislature by less than an affirmative unanimous vote of members voting, except the member to be expelled or impeached.

7. No regional office shall be named President or Vice President.

8. Voting periods in all regional elections and referendums shall be no shorter than a period of seventy-two (72) hours and no longer than 196 hours (196) hours in duration.

9. Aside from the exceptions as laid out by this section, no region shall proceed to amend its constitution without a minimum of two thirds affirmative support of its membership with ratification through a popular referendum by eligible voters of the region.

10. In the instance of a voting booth thread not being posted in time for the scheduled start of a regional election or referendum, the President of Atlasia shall be permitted to authorize the federal administration of a regional election or referendum through an appointed officer or themself.

11. To allow time for regions to update their procedures and avoid suddenly unstaffing governments, Regions will have until July 28, 2023 to bring themselves into compliance without penalty, and any existing legislators and executives may serve until that time.

[Sirius_]

24 hours to object

[reagente]

So citizen-proposed constitutional amendments are now banned? All amendments must go through the legislature first?

[Sirius_]

I propose the following amendment:

4. Term lengths for all regional legislators and regional executives shall not exceed four (4) months.be prescribed as either three (3) months for both the executive and the legislature or four (4) months for the executive and two (2) months for the legislature. Any region which combines the executive and the legislature as a parliamentary unit shall have term lengths prescribed as three (3) months. Regional executive and legislative offices may have shorter term lengths than these prescribed in this section.

I believe that this is a fair limit and the current wording seems oddly restrictive to me. 24 hours to object.

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

I support the amendment

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

So citizen-proposed constitutional amendments are now banned? All amendments must go through the legislature first?

yes

[At-Large Senator LouisvilleThunder]

I object to the amendment. I think that the tighter wording is absolutely necessary for making the South accept democracy again. Limiting this only further enables Reagente (and the SNP) who belongs in a prison cell, not drafting a slightly less rigged constitution in the South. Fremont and Lincoln are already in compliance with it anyway.

[At-Large Senator LouisvilleThunder]

A vote is now open on the Sirius amendment. Senators have 72 hours to vote.