Ukraine Crisis

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

I don't support the Russian invasion, but I don't support the Western propaganda surrounding it either. Both sides in Ukraine were run by corrupt oligarchs--but some of those corrupt oligarchs and their neo-Nazi lackeys were pro-EU, so they had to be the good guys.

Some of them had snipers shoot random protesters. Others didn't. It's obvious which side are the good guys.

Neither, given that said protesters also overthrew a democratically-elected government they happened to dislike, then proceeded to strip away protections for non-Ukrainians in Ukraine. It's just that the oligarchs behind Euromaidan are pro-Western and want to join the EU, so they must be the good guys! CNN and the New York Times told me so! The only solution is for the Ukrainian conflict to become a class struggle (class was disappointingly a non-factor in the revolution) and for Ukraine's proletariat to overthrow both the pro-Brussels thugs and the pro-Moscow thugs.

And I never said that America was behind the protests (though I'm sure that Obama has something to do with the far-right rich kids trying to bring fascism back to Venezuela).

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I'm not denying that many people both in and outside America are opposed to aggressive wars started by both the US and Russia, but many of the same people criticizing Putin for wanting to protect ethnic Russians from a neo-Nazi regime see nothing wrong with Obama sending drones to turn a Yemeni wedding into a Yemeni funeral, or Bush setting up torture camps in Iraq (which he had earlier invaded under false pretext), or Clinton laying waste to basic civilian infrastructure (and civilians) in Yugoslavia, etc.

You oppose all those so-called American atrocities but you defend Russia.

Seems to me you don't mind aggressive military action unless it's done by Americans or people who perceive as pro-American.

I'm not a fan of aggressive military action in general, but I don't like double standards either (and the idea that there's only propaganda on Moscow's side is hilariously untrue). For instance,

You don't like double standards? Then why do you oppose aggressive American military action but defend aggressive Russian military action?

This is the second time I am pointing out your own double standard.

For the record Plante was released October 17, 2012. She was in jail for a whole week.

The sad thing is whoever made that probably could've found a decent comparison if they dug around for a bit more (much like how the Free Mumia people hurt the cause of the anti-death penalty movement by focusing on a guy who was almost certainly guilty and ignoring far stronger cases.)

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Irritation at the excesses of much of the Western media coverage is fine, but I'm sure you can express that without parroting Russian propaganda.

[Oakvale]

Neither, given that said protesters also overthrew a democratically-elected government they happened to dislike, then proceeded to strip away protections for non-Ukrainians in Ukraine. It's just that the oligarchs behind Euromaidan are pro-Western and want to join the EU, so they must be the good guys! CNN and the New York Times told me so!

Putin is a noble hero valiantly protecting his people from oligarchs and Eurocrats. The People's Cynic told me so.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

Putin's concern is maintaining the Crimean bases, warm-water Black Sea ports with access to the Med and beyond - it's the most Russian thing there is, that plus a bruised ego of having his puppet thrown out of office. You're fooling yourself if you think there is anything more to this than that.

It's OK there's allowed to be a bad guy here...

[Famous Mortimer]

I don't support the Russian invasion, but I don't support the Western propaganda surrounding it either. Both sides in Ukraine were run by corrupt oligarchs--but some of those corrupt oligarchs and their neo-Nazi lackeys were pro-EU, so they had to be the good guys.

Some of them had snipers shoot random protesters. Others didn't. It's obvious which side are the good guys.

Neither, given that said protesters also overthrew a democratically-elected government they happened to dislike, then proceeded to strip away protections for non-Ukrainians in Ukraine. It's just that the oligarchs behind Euromaidan are pro-Western and want to join the EU, so they must be the good guys! CNN and the New York Times told me so! The only solution is for the Ukrainian conflict to become a class struggle (class was disappointingly a non-factor in the revolution) and for Ukraine's proletariat to overthrow both the pro-Brussels thugs and the pro-Moscow thugs.

And I never said that America was behind the protests (though I'm sure that Obama has something to do with the far-right rich kids trying to bring fascism back to Venezuela).

No "protections" were stripped away. Russian was removed as an official language, which it had only been for a couple of months. I personally think that was a dumb move but it doesn't endanger Russian speakers anymore than they were endangered from 1991-2013.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Putin's concern is maintaining the Crimean bases, warm-water Black Sea ports with access to the Med and beyond - it's the most Russian thing there is, that plus a bruised ego of having his puppet thrown out of office. You're fooling yourself if you think there is anything more to this than that.

It's OK there's allowed to be a bad guy here...

There's no reason for Crimea to be part of Ukraine. The "bad guys" are the rich corrupt thugs who oppress Ukraine's working class, whether they're Merkel's puppets or Putin's puppets.

[Oakvale]

Sidenote: I'm greatly enjoying the bizarre Merkel/Putin equivalency Snowstalker is babbling about here.

[IceSpear]

I don't support the Russian invasion, but I don't support the Western propaganda surrounding it either. Both sides in Ukraine were run by corrupt oligarchs--but some of those corrupt oligarchs and their neo-Nazi lackeys were pro-EU, so they had to be the good guys.

Yanukovych killed his own country's people. The new government has not. So no, they aren't "just as bad".

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

Putin's concern is maintaining the Crimean bases, warm-water Black Sea ports with access to the Med and beyond - it's the most Russian thing there is, that plus a bruised ego of having his puppet thrown out of office. You're fooling yourself if you think there is anything more to this than that.

It's OK there's allowed to be a bad guy here...

There's no reason for Crimea to be part of Ukraine. The "bad guys" are the rich corrupt thugs who oppress Ukraine's working class, whether they're Merkel's puppets or Putin's puppets.

The point is, it is part of Ukraine.

Stop being mindless parrot ...

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Snowstalker, you're not helping your cause.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

I don't support the Russian invasion, but I don't support the Western propaganda surrounding it either. Both sides in Ukraine were run by corrupt oligarchs--but some of those corrupt oligarchs and their neo-Nazi lackeys were pro-EU, so they had to be the good guys.

Yanukovych killed his own country's people. The new government has not. So no, they aren't "just as bad".

Yanukovych was, again, awful, but what would you do if a motley crew of "enlightened" neoliberals and neo-Nazi skinheads were attempting to overthrow of a democratically-elected government?

Again, this is what happens when you try to have a revolution without an organized left (and attempted leftist protests against the government were quickly quashed by Svoboda thugs). When it's right-wingers vs. right-wingers, everyone loses except the moneyed elites.

[ag]

Putin's concern is maintaining the Crimean bases, warm-water Black Sea ports with access to the Med and beyond - it's the most Russian thing there is, that plus a bruised ego of having his puppet thrown out of office. You're fooling yourself if you think there is anything more to this than that.

It's OK there's allowed to be a bad guy here...

There's no reason for Crimea to be part of Ukraine. The "bad guys" are the rich corrupt thugs who oppress Ukraine's working class, whether they're Merkel's puppets or Putin's puppets.

There is no reason for you to be spouting nonsense in support of various fascist dictators all over the world either. Nevertheless, you are continuously doing it: just for fun, I presume.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Putin's concern is maintaining the Crimean bases, warm-water Black Sea ports with access to the Med and beyond - it's the most Russian thing there is, that plus a bruised ego of having his puppet thrown out of office. You're fooling yourself if you think there is anything more to this than that.

It's OK there's allowed to be a bad guy here...

There's no reason for Crimea to be part of Ukraine. The "bad guys" are the rich corrupt thugs who oppress Ukraine's working class, whether they're Merkel's puppets or Putin's puppets.

There is no reason for you to be spouting nonsense in support of various fascist dictators all over the world either. Nevertheless, you are continuously doing it: just for fun, I presume.

The fascists are the ones who used a modified swastika as their party symbol and now hold several cabinet seats in the new government, no?

[Yank2133]

Snowstalker pure leftist act was fun at first......now it is just sad.

[J. J.]

Putin for wanting to protect ethnic Russians from a neo-Nazi regime

Hummm, where have I heard about protecting minorities in Eastern Europe before?

[J. J.]

Except that while Russia is stuck in the 19th century, most of Europe has moved on and is not about to invade the Motherland.

I didn'r say i agreed.  I said I understood.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I'm not a fan of aggressive military action in general, but I don't like double standards either (and the idea that there's only propaganda on Moscow's side is hilariously untrue). For instance,

"Refusal to provide a grand jury testimony concerning activists in the region" sounds very civil and peaceful unless one knows that those "activists"  were black bloc anarchist thugs who engaged in extensive vandalism during May Day 2012 protests in Seattle.  By contrast, Pussy Riot caused no damage with their protest.  So trying to equate the two is absurd.

[J. J.]

Christ J.J...

i repeat.  I said I understood, not that I agreed.

[ag]

Snowstalker pure leftist ...

You mean, ultra-rightist, don't you?

[Antonio the Sixth]

Bullsh*t is strong with this thread.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

This thread is rapidly turning into as much of a catastrophe as the current political situation in Ukraine.

[J. J.]

What are our treaty obligations with Ukraine like?

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

I was just going to post "where is Tony with a Stop Saying Words! meme when you need it" but I see he just posted.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

Snow is full of so much false equivalence it's not funny. This is not about SAGE class or something you've read on a blog or something to do with left v right.  This is about Russia's military strategy and it has been Russia's military strategy since Peter the Great.

Yanukovych was not some  kind  of innocent party - he was elected with the help of Russia and on the back of ethnic Russians - he was a puppet, no the opposition are NOT Merkel's puppets. The parts of Ukraine where people live do not want to be tied Russia and want to look to the EU (if you had a choice between Russia or the EU... I think I'd know what most sensible people would choose) - The President then chose a blatant bribe from Russia etc etc etc