An American absurd

[Shira]

People earning less than $40,000 with no healthcare with no any proper education voting for Bush  because of “Moral Values”

[Shira]

It’s all along modern history. Parties on the right with a very bad agenda for low income people were successful in attracting many of them. There is a strong correlation between poverty and ignorance.

[Shira]

I think that I have not properly expressed myself.
I am talking about the non-issue of gay marriage, playing such a major role.
I have never seen this topic mentioned in election campaigns in other countries.

As to the ignorance that I talked about, many of the voters, for example, (including these without health insurance) do not even know that in other countries healthcare systems are different, and that no one is without health insurance.

[Shira]

Let us not be calling Shira a troll.  She is many things but troll is not on the list.

agreed.  Frankly, her way of putting it was inelegant, but it's a valid point, much like the point of the many extreme rich voting for Kerry, despite the cost in taxes.

Rich voting for Kerry (who himself is very rich) is totally different than low-income people voting for Bush.

The first ones are knowledgeable and well educated. They care much more about the Iraqi debacle than on whether they will pay $X or Y$ as taxes.

[Shira]

Shira..

Has your opinion of Mr. Zogby changed any..?

As most of the pollsters Zogby was not bad (+1 to Bush).
The two bad ones were Fox and Newsweek.

I did not check the state by state polls of the pollsters. I think that the last SUSA's was a good one.

[Shira]

Shira, I wonder how often you get out and talk to us red-staters or the common, uninsured, uneducated man on the street?  Do you?  I do.  They're better informed than you might think, and they actually know what they stand for.  They probably couldn't defend themselves in a debate against some high-minded liberal intellectual, but that's not the point.  Their vote is their own, and they aren't near as dumb as you like to think they are.

You have offended me - and thus many fellow Kansans - to the Nth degree.

Tell me honestly, do you know, for example, that life expectancy in the US is by 4 years shorter than in Japan, by 3 years shorter than in Australia and Sweden, by 1.5 years shorter than in Germany and by 1 year shorter than in the UK ?
In general, life expectancy in the US is one of the shortest among developed countries, including a “developed” country like Jordan.

It seems to me that people like you don’t really understand the severity of these stats.

[Shira]

It becomes more and more clear that these elections were practically decided by the gay marriage artificial issue.

If only 50,000 voters in Ohio had voted the other way, Bush would have lost and we would have been listening to a completely different talking. “Where did the Rep go wrong?” etc.  Because the margin in Ohio is so nerrow, I can safely say that the “gay marriage”  decided these elections.

What a shame!

[Shira]

LMAO. Shira -- give me a break.

When a country is evaluated as to how advanced it is, the first indicator is Life Expectancy

[Shira]

Well, it was the left that decided to *make* this an issue in the first place by forcing the issue in Massachusetts. Go blame them for it...

It was not done by Kerry. Kerry was very upset with this wrong decision at the worst timing.
When it happened my mother's reaction was "expect troubles"

Bush: "Thank you Massachusetts supreme court"

[Shira]

Massachusetts Supreme Court may have won Bush this election.

It sounds strange, but I agree with you.

[Shira]

many Bush supporters care about the Iraq debacle as well. 

The majority (not all) of Bush supporters were manipulated to believe that Sadam is responsible for 9/11.

The bible accurately describes these people:
"They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness"
Psalm (82:5)

[Shira]

Well, it was the left that decided to *make* this an issue in the first place by forcing the issue in Massachusetts. Go blame them for it...

It was not done by Kerry. Kerry was very upset with this wrong decision at the worst timing.
When it happened my mother's reaction was "expect troubles"

Bush: "Thank you Massachusetts supreme court"

"Expect Troubles" is an understatement...so is "wrong decision at the worst timing". Did we really need to have yet another big issue to argue about? Too late now...

Again. It was not done by Kerry and he could not prevent it.

[Shira]

Saddam has ties to Al Qaeda. Bush never told anyone Saddam was responsible for 9/11.

The war was to stop him from being responsible for 9/11 version 2.0.

I am not talking about what Bush did or did not tell. I am talking about what many of his voters sincerily believe, or more accurately, were manipulated to believe.

[Shira]

Well, it was the left that decided to *make* this an issue in the first place by forcing the issue in Massachusetts. Go blame them for it...

It was not done by Kerry. Kerry was very upset with this wrong decision at the worst timing.
When it happened my mother's reaction was "expect troubles"

Bush: "Thank you Massachusetts supreme court"

"Expect Troubles" is an understatement...so is "wrong decision at the worst timing". Did we really need to have yet another big issue to argue about? Too late now...

Again. It was not done by Kerry and he could not prevent it.

Hey, I didn't blame him for it in the first place. But rightly or wrongly, it did play a role...which surprised me a bit in its intensity...

It decided OH because the margin there was narrow. If the margin were like in KY or IN then it would have a negligible affect

[Shira]

Saddam has ties to Al Qaeda. Bush never told anyone Saddam was responsible for 9/11.

The war was to stop him from being responsible for 9/11 version 2.0.

I am not talking about what Bush did or did not tell. I am talking about what many of his voters sincerily believe, or more accurately, were manipulated to believe.

Who manipulated them and how were they manipulated?

First, almost  half of the voters believe that Sadam is responsible for 9/11 and these are not Kerry's voters.

Bush has never said it explicitly, but implicitly he transmitted it many many times.

BTW: When FOX brings the Iraq stuff, they put it in the section "War on Terror".

[Shira]

Uh, 120,000 votes is not narrow.

It is 51:49 margin.
As I said, if only 50,000 (out of 2.8 M) of Bush voters had voted the other way then we would have heard different tunes.

BTW: In 2000 the margin in OH was 3.5%  for Bush.

[Shira]

Well, it was the left that decided to *make* this an issue in the first place by forcing the issue in Massachusetts. Go blame them for it...

It was not done by Kerry. Kerry was very upset with this wrong decision at the worst timing.
When it happened my mother's reaction was "expect troubles"

Bush: "Thank you Massachusetts supreme court"

"Expect Troubles" is an understatement...so is "wrong decision at the worst timing". Did we really need to have yet another big issue to argue about? Too late now...

Again. It was not done by Kerry and he could not prevent it.

Hey, I didn't blame him for it in the first place. But rightly or wrongly, it did play a role...which surprised me a bit in its intensity...

It decided OH because the margin there was narrow. If the margin were like in KY or IN then it would have a negligible affect

It didn't appear to determine Michigan or Oregon, either.

Yes. The margin there was not as narrow as in OH. I assume that Kerry probably lost 1% in these two states because of this, but as I said, the margin was safe enough.

[Shira]

I really doubt 60,000 people changed their vote to Bush because of gay marriage. They can still vote yes on an amendment and vote Kerry.

"because of gay marriage" - not that's what I am saying. Among Bush voters there were enough voters that potentially could have voted the other way. 50,000 is less than 1% of the toal number.

[Shira]

The people voting may want the society to be a certain way, and are willing to take an economic hit to make society that way.

willing?
They are totally unaware of the fact that they are going to take an economic hit. The bible already defined them many years ago.

"They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness"
Psalm (82:5)

[Shira]

Tell them to their faces that they're dumb and ignorant; just a bunch of stupid hicks who have no real values.  That seems a good plan for the Democrats...that'll win ya'll votes in 2008, I'm sure.

Not dumb not ignorant and not stupid hicks.
They are simply misinformed.
It is very sad that there are people who are angry about "Gay Marriage" and on the other hand sincerely believe that Sadam is responsible for 9/11.

[Shira]

Tell them to their faces that they're dumb and ignorant; just a bunch of stupid hicks who have no real values.  That seems a good plan for the Democrats...that'll win ya'll votes in 2008, I'm sure.

Not dumb not ignorant and not stupid hicks.
They are simply misinformed.
It is very sad that there are people who are angry about "Gay Marriage" and on the other hand sincerely believe that Sadam is responsible for 9/11.

Shira, and i say this respectfully, how is someone misinformed about gay marriage when their personal religion tells them directly in the bible is samesex relations are wrong.  Same with any of the sex oriented social issues.  And although you say they are not dumb not ignorant and not stupid hicks, a majority of the left believes they are and hates them. I have been called a bigot by so many people because of my just being republican.  In school, a girl in class at ASU while in a group with me, not even knowing im republican, says "I cant believe how many republicans are at this school.  They disgust me."

The problem was the attampt to explicitly legislate that marriage is between a man and woman. It was a cynical calculated step to make it a big issue in order to trigger the religious innocent people.

[Shira]

I mean naïve.
Most of them are manipulated

[Shira]

Shira, I wonder how often you get out and talk to us red-staters or the common, uninsured, uneducated man on the street?  Do you?  I do.  They're better informed than you might think, and they actually know what they stand for.  They probably couldn't defend themselves in a debate against some high-minded liberal intellectual, but that's not the point.  Their vote is their own, and they aren't near as dumb as you like to think they are.

You have offended me - and thus many fellow Kansans - to the Nth degree.

Tell me honestly, do you know, for example, that life expectancy in the US is by 4 years shorter than in Japan, by 3 years shorter than in Australia and Sweden, by 1.5 years shorter than in Germany and by 1 year shorter than in the UK ?
In general, life expectancy in the US is one of the shortest among developed countries, including a “developed” country like Jordan.

It seems to me that people like you don’t really understand the severity of these stats.

It's the law of averages, Shira.  We have more people than those places combined, so of course our averages are going to be lower. 

Yet another Shira statistical tangent in an attempt to prove some point in a losing argument.

I am very sorry to say, but  it seems that you  don't understand what you are talking about.

[Shira]

Shira, I wonder how often you get out and talk to us red-staters or the common, uninsured, uneducated man on the street?  Do you?  I do.  They're better informed than you might think, and they actually know what they stand for.  They probably couldn't defend themselves in a debate against some high-minded liberal intellectual, but that's not the point.  Their vote is their own, and they aren't near as dumb as you like to think they are.

You have offended me - and thus many fellow Kansans - to the Nth degree.

Tell me honestly, do you know, for example, that life expectancy in the US is by 4 years shorter than in Japan, by 3 years shorter than in Australia and Sweden, by 1.5 years shorter than in Germany and by 1 year shorter than in the UK ?
In general, life expectancy in the US is one of the shortest among developed countries, including a “developed” country like Jordan.

It seems to me that people like you don’t really understand the severity of these stats.

It's the law of averages, Shira.  We have more people than those places combined, so of course our averages are going to be lower. 

Yet another Shira statistical tangent in an attempt to prove some point in a losing argument.

I am very sorry to say, but  it seems that you  don't understand what you are talking about.

How exactly are you an expert on the subject?

You don't have to be an expert. Simply read the numbers.
You can spin it and say that it has nothing to do with the healthcare system, but it does.

[Shira]

How are lower income people going to take an economic hit from George Bush?

For example, by denying them a reasonable helthcare system, by reducing the budgets to their schools and more and more items.