Should George W Bush be put on trial for Iraq?

[Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers]

His Prez is over but RH is making a big deal about Hunter Laptop and Biden won't be the first Prez to have committed a crime, Docugate while in office and got reelected Nixon broke into DNC in 1972 he wasn't worried about McGovern he was worried about Sgt Shriver another Kennedy, and certainly Bush W did Abu Garib and Rs kept the H in 2004 until 2006 and Pelosi wished they had the H in 2005 she would of impeached Trump but Katrina came after 2004 Eday, Biden committed Docugate and he is still beating RS and tied in FL

Trump committed Multiple felonies anyways so Docugate isn't that big of a deal and people said D's are better than Rs because of Obamacare anyways, alot of poor people can care less about Docugate that's why it's on Fox news and J6 is on MSNBC, CNN and CSPAN because RS are hypocrisy they committed crimes in J6 and Biden has Docugate

The RS want you to forget J6 anyways they voted against the Jt Committee and stopped the investigation

[All Along The Watchtower]

That entire administration’s upper layer, or a large chunk of it, should’ve been prosecuted for torture.

But I know, “look forward, not backward.” Just like with the financial crisis. There were no perpetrators, only victims. Thanks, Obama.

[KaiserDave]

Possibly, not sure. But I am sure that the right thing to do would be for Eric Holder and Obama to go a lot further in investigating those administration officials who consciously supported the use of torture and that investigation would include the entire administration to be credible.

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

Comparing Bush and Putin is completely ridiculous in every possible way . Bush was not a dictator and Iraq unlike Ukraine was a totalitarian dictatorship. Most of the deaths in Iraq were also caused by Sunni Extremists , many who were led by high ranking members of Saddam’s military where they also were responsible for countless Iraqi deaths .

The vast majority of deaths in Ukraine is due to Putin and Russian separatists before that in while  in Iraq it was by Sunni insurgents who also were responsible for countless deaths when they were in power in Iraq .

Am I making any of the claims, including that Bush is as bad as Putin or that American forces were directly responsible for every death in Iraq? No, those are your words/straw men.

However the war in Iraq was 100% illegal according to almost all international conventions and any justifications presented have now been proven to be almost entirely fabrications. Let's be honest, the overthrow of a brutal dictator was just a side-piece to real American objectives.

Most Iraqis when asked believe that their lives are worse off and tbh the country isn't in much better of a position, all things considered, than even Afghanistan.

But the important part is the fact that both wars were illegal under international law. And as I said in the OP, if we had a real rules based international order that applied to all countries equally then there would be consequences for that.

[KaiserDave]

The Ukraine/Iraq comparison is pretty myopic and I think a waste of time. Both wars are tragedies and humanitarian catastrophes, both included horrific war crimes by the American and Russian states, both should be condemned, both are based on lies and propaganda, though are different in many ways in cause, severity, motivation, nature, and so on.

For what it's worth, I think the conduct of the Russian forces in Ukraine is worse than the American forces in Iraq were. How many Abu Ghraibs do you think there are in Donbass being run by the sadists in PMC Wagner?

[OSR stands with Israel]

Comparing Bush and Putin is completely ridiculous in every possible way . Bush was not a dictator and Iraq unlike Ukraine was a totalitarian dictatorship. Most of the deaths in Iraq were also caused by Sunni Extremists , many who were led by high ranking members of Saddam’s military where they also were responsible for countless Iraqi deaths .

The vast majority of deaths in Ukraine is due to Putin and Russian separatists before that in while  in Iraq it was by Sunni insurgents who also were responsible for countless deaths when they were in power in Iraq .

Am I making any of the claims, including that Bush is as bad as Putin or that American forces were directly responsible for every death in Iraq? No, those are your words/straw men.

However the war in Iraq was 100% illegal according to almost all international conventions and any justifications presented have now been proven to be almost entirely fabrications. Let's be honest, the overthrow of a brutal dictator was just a side-piece to real American objectives.

Most Iraqis when asked believe that their lives are worse off and tbh the country isn't in much better of a position, all things considered, than even Afghanistan.

But the important part is the fact that both wars were illegal under international law. And as I said in the OP, if we had a real rules based international order that applied to all countries equally then there would be consequences for that.

Well you posted this days before the Russian invasion and basically implied that even if Russia fully invaded Ukraine , it would take years before it became worse than Iraq . Do you still agree with that or not 

You're right, the Iraq War has caused many times more damage than any potential invasion of Ukraine, particularly a limited incursion into the east, would cause. Drop the American exceptionalism BS, just because you believe the US can do no wrong doesn't mean our sh**t don't stink and at the end of the day, the US has acted every bit as much as an imperialist power in the past as Russia is doing today.

Literally nobody thinks "the US can do no wrong."

Uh, literally that's what American Exceptionalism is all about? And OSR trying to hold up Iraq as some moral success compared to the (comparatively) milquetoast Russian saber rattling in Ukraine is just insane. Iraq was many, many more times costly to humanity in terms of the human cost, financial cost and the continuing cost to regional stability in the Middle East.

Unless Putin decides to forcefully foist an occupation government on Ukraine, including the central regions and the West, and continue to occupy them for over a decade, then it's highly unlikely we're going to see even close to the devastation and world-spanning instability that the Iraq War caused.

Anyway Suddam had done other proacations of war as well as trying to murder a former president is an act of war and they obstructed weapons inspectors from doing their job even though that was part of their surrender agreement back in 91.

[Spectator]

I can’t believe people are actually defending Bush.

[S019]

No, he shouldn't

[OSR stands with Israel]

I can’t believe people are actually defending Bush.

You can say he was wrong to invade and was a terrible president without saying he should be put in prison for it and compared to war criminals like Putin like Mehdi Hasan is doing

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

A country is more than its government. And if there are no democratic institutions, why is a dictatorship necessarily an "illegitimate" government?

Governments in general don't inherently deserve respect. Dictatorships are defined by brutal repression and cruelty towards the masses done so that the elites on top can keep their lavish lifestyles and unchecked power (and "brutal repression and cruelty" in this case is far worse than anything we see in the US). I don't see why a government defined by the oppression of the populace deserves to be respected and protected. What is your justification for that?

By your logic, was no 15th century government legitimate because none were democratic by today's standards?

No 15th century government was inherently deserving of sovereignty, yes.

[certified hummus supporter 🇵🇸🤝🇺🇸🤝🇺🇦]

A country is more than its government. And if there are no democratic institutions, why is a dictatorship necessarily an "illegitimate" government?

Governments in general don't inherently deserve respect. Dictatorships are defined by brutal repression and cruelty towards the masses done so that the elites on top can keep their lavish lifestyles and unchecked power (and "brutal repression and cruelty" in this case is far worse than anything we see in the US). I don't see why a government defined by the oppression of the populace deserves to be respected and protected. What is your justification for that?

By your logic, was no 15th century government legitimate because none were democratic by today's standards?

No 15th century government was inherently deserving of sovereignty, yes.

I will not tolerate Byzantine slander here 😤😤😤

[TiltsAreUnderrated]

No, that's too easy a way out. We need to face up to the fact that the Iraq War was a failure of our overall political class and supported at first by a strong majority of voters.

That's rather like letting identified murderers in a pogrom walk free because they had a mob on their side.

Holding individuals to account is valuable even in the absence of (more important) systemic change. The justice is an end in itself, but it can also create a culture of fear amongst those closest to the convicted. If it can happen to the President, it can happen to the Secretary of State (and so on).

[Shaula🏳️‍⚧️]

Yes obviously. Bush, Cheney, Bolton, Rumsfeld and the rest of the bush administration should receive the maximum penalty for mass murder in Texas of the total amount of Iraqis killed.

[Kleine Scheiße]

People deserve to know the truth!

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

Interesting story, especially the backlash even suggesting US intentions in Iraq weren't completely coherent back then received.

[oldtimer]

I was born in 2001 can someone explain the Bush War Criminal thing

If you are not jocking and you really want to know here, this is the story of the Bush War Criminal thing:

The Bush Administration decided to invade Iraq the moment they won in 2000.

9/11 provided the political capital to do so and some people from the CIA provided the fake evidence that Saddam had WMD's.

Now why they wanted to invade Iraq, well some say for the oil, some say for revenge because some Bush people blamed the original Gulf War for Bush Snr. losing relection in 1992.

Now we don't know if Bush W. was part of the conspiracy because he is probably too dumb, but there certainly was a conspiracy since Colin Powell resigned as Secretary of State when he found out that he was bamboozled by his own people.

That's how it is, is it true ? Probably, but no one knows for sure except those who were in it.