German High Court rules that Muslim girls must join mixed-sex swimming lessons

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

2. The linked Reuters article failed to mention the main point of the verdict. The claimant had argued that participating in swimming lessons would violate Muslim belief, because the girl would have to look at half-naked bodies. The court ruled that the sight of half-naked bodies is so common in Germany (advertising billboards, etc.), that taking part in swimming lessons could not be considered fundamentally different from waiting at bus stops, going cloth shopping, etc.,, and as such did not constitute an undue violation of religious rights.

You'd think Europe would generally have less advertising and less obnoxious advertising than the US given that commercial speech generally is not as well protected as it is here in the US.  Are billboards really so ubiquitous in Germany that people can't avoid looking at them?

[Franknburger]

2. The linked Reuters article failed to mention the main point of the verdict. The claimant had argued that participating in swimming lessons would violate Muslim belief, because the girl would have to look at half-naked bodies. The court ruled that the sight of half-naked bodies is so common in Germany (advertising billboards, etc.), that taking part in swimming lessons could not be considered fundamentally different from waiting at bus stops, going cloth shopping, etc.,, and as such did not constitute an undue violation of religious rights.

You'd think Europe would generally have less advertising and less obnoxious advertising than the US given that commercial speech generally is not as well protected as it is here in the US.  Are billboards really so ubiquitous in Germany that people can't avoid looking at them?

Outdoor media outreach in Germany (2012 data):

Billboards, cities above 20,000 inhabitants                         85.2%
Advertising Pillar, cities above 20,000 inhabitants              70.3%
City-Light-Poster,  cities above 20,000 inhabitants            74.1%
Mega-Light-Posters, cities above 100,000 inhabitants       43.4%                 


 

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I wouldn't be against an opt out as long as EVERYONE was given the option. But basically saying all Muslim girls must opt out and no one else can is quite absurd. It kind of reminds me of an incident where some stupid jingoistic school argued they could force a student to say the Pledge of Allegiance because the student wasn't a Jehova's Witness and the Supreme Court decision only applied to them, basically unless you had a religious objection it wasn't valid, which of course is flat out false. Once the ACLU got wind and had their lawyers contact the school and teach them a lesson about court precedent the school backed down quickly.

[MaxQue]

All physical education should be coed. Oh, and freedom decision. Children must be taught to be comfortable with each other's bodies. There's a pretty clear analogy to the creationism in public schools debate in the US here.

There's no issue of fact like there is with Creationism/Evolution. "Children should be comfortable with each other's bodies" is a value judgement; one that you are apparently willing to trample over parental/religious rights to achieve.

Well, each state has defined basic tenets and rights, which must not be violated, but, sometimes, you have to make a choice when some of them enter in conflict. Here, gender equality and religious freedom.

[afleitch]

All physical education should be coed. Oh, and freedom decision. Children must be taught to be comfortable with each other's bodies. There's a pretty clear analogy to the creationism in public schools debate in the US here.

There's no issue of fact like there is with Creationism/Evolution. "Children should be comfortable with each other's bodies" is a value judgement; one that you are apparently willing to trample over parental/religious rights to achieve.

Well, each state has defined basic tenets and rights, which must not be violated, but, sometimes, you have to make a choice when some of them enter in conflict. Here, gender equality and religious freedom.

The fact that religious freedom is afforded protection at all given that it is essentially a choice personal philosophy is a product of it's historical protected status. When it comes into conflict with other protected groups then what is essentially classified as religious 'discomfort' towards female equality, LGBT equality and so on does not stand up in court, partiuclarly as numerous self identified religious people don't have an issue with mixed gender swimming, or gays getting medical treatment or whatever is the issue raised.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Outdoor media outreach in Germany (2012 data):

Billboards, cities above 20,000 inhabitants                         85.2%
Advertising Pillar, cities above 20,000 inhabitants              70.3%
City-Light-Poster,  cities above 20,000 inhabitants            74.1%
Mega-Light-Posters, cities above 100,000 inhabitants       43.4% 

Ugh.  For better or worse, outdoor advertizing here in South Carolina is limited largely to billboards and vehicle decals, and I'd say that it's better.

[Oakvale]

All physical education should be separated by sex.

This seems like the most sensible option here.

[Franknburger]

All physical education should be separated by sex.

This seems like the most sensible option here.

This may be considered from 9th/10th grade on. Before that (and the case in question arose when the girl was ten years old), it is neither pedagogically, nor financially making sense. As concerns swimming, which is mostly taught in primary school, there just aren't enough facilities for it in Germany.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

All physical education should be separated by sex.

This seems like the most sensible option here.

This may be considered from 9th/10th grade on. Before that (and the case in question arose when the girl was ten years old), it is neither pedagogically, nor financially making sense. As concerns swimming, which is mostly taught in primary school, there just aren't enough facilities for it in Germany.

Unless they have her whole school in the pool at the same time, I don't see where scheduling single-gender swimming classes would be problematic.

[Franknburger]

All physical education should be separated by sex.

This seems like the most sensible option here.

This may be considered from 9th/10th grade on. Before that (and the case in question arose when the girl was ten years old), it is neither pedagogically, nor financially making sense. As concerns swimming, which is mostly taught in primary school, there just aren't enough facilities for it in Germany.

Unless they have her whole school in the pool at the same time, I don't see where scheduling single-gender swimming classes would be problematic.

Because it is done in public baths, which are located distant from the school. Typically a double school lesson, to not waste too much time on getting there, undressing and re-dressing. What do you do with the other-sex half of the class in the meantime ?
We are talking about basic swimming teaching here, making sure that everybody has the ability to survive fifteen minutes in deep water (so-called "Freischwimmer" status). They are not sending the whole school, but a whole grade (typically grade 3) there, and separating the group according to abilities (one teacher looking at beginners in the low water section, another one looking at the advanced ones in deeper water, possibly a third one doing training on diving, etc.).

[Sbane]

I don't think it's a bad decision, as the girls can wear burqinis. If they were forced to wear bikinis, it would be a different issue. Still, I think anyone should be able to excuse themselves from an activity if they can provide a good enough reason (which I wouldn't just restrict to religion).

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Unless they have her whole school in the pool at the same time, I don't see where scheduling single-gender swimming classes would be problematic.

Because it is done in public baths, which are located distant from the school. Typically a double school lesson, to not waste too much time on getting there, undressing and re-dressing. What do you do with the other-sex half of the class in the meantime ?
We are talking about basic swimming teaching here, making sure that everybody has the ability to survive fifteen minutes in deep water (so-called "Freischwimmer" status). They are not sending the whole school, but a whole grade (typically grade 3) there, and separating the group according to abilities (one teacher looking at beginners in the low water section, another one looking at the advanced ones in deeper water, possibly a third one doing training on diving, etc.).

I still don't see a problem, especially since as you point out, they aren't sticking together as a class for the swimming lesson anyway.  Seems to me that it'd be quite doable to have the other gender remain at the school for some form of lesson, most likely some other variety of physical education so that all the kids get roughly the same level of activity that day.  So it doesn't appear to be a matter of logistics that is supporting mixed-gender PE, but rather a prejudice against single-gender PE.

[Gustaf]

Germany has ads like the ones in this link: http://joyandadvertising.wordpress.com/2010/05/04/germany-aids-is-a-mass-murderer/

Might not be considered safe for work.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Germany has ads like the ones in this link: http://joyandadvertising.wordpress.com/2010/05/04/germany-aids-is-a-mass-murderer/

Might not be considered safe for work.

Is a mass murderer someone who violates the law of the conservation of mass and energy?