Should people who are depressed and suicidal be able to seek euthanasia?

[Santander]

Also, anyone who opposes this while supporting capital punishment is automatically a very illogical person.

... because?

[Torie]

No, unless in a terminal state, in which case arguably euthanasia should be legal but I have still have qualms for reasons I won't get into now (in my case I will just off myself), euthanasia should definitely not be legal. That suggestion frankly is close to nutter.

[America Needs a 13-6 Progressive SCOTUS]

Also, anyone who opposes this while supporting capital punishment is automatically a very illogical person.

... because?

Basically, by opposing this while supporting capital punishment, you are having these 2 beliefs at the same time:

1. The government should be allowed to forcefully kill people when they want to live.
2. The government should be allowed to force people to live when they want to kill themselves.

Which is a set of positions that supporters would have to have mutually exclusive belief systems to support.

[SWE]

Also, anyone who opposes this while supporting capital punishment is automatically a very illogical person.

... because?

Basically, by opposing this while supporting capital punishment, you are having these 2 beliefs at the same time:

1. The government should be allowed to forcefully kill people when they want to live.
2. The government should be allowed to force people to live when they want to kill themselves.

Which is a set of positions that supporters would have to have mutually exclusive belief systems to support.

There's nothing contradictory here. Different things are different.

[dead0man]

is there some overlap with the abortion issue here?  Many people support/defend abortion with the "but women are going to get abortions anyway" as a reason.  Doesn't that work here for the same reasons?  People are still going to do suicide even if its illegal....we know this, because it's how it is now.

[PSOL]

is there some overlap with the abortion issue here?  Many people support/defend abortion with the "but women are going to get abortions anyway" as a reason.  Doesn't that work here for the same reasons?  People are still going to do suicide even if its illegal....we know this, because it's how it is now.

It differs in that suicide deals with consenting people by themselves. Of course you could look at the fact that before allowing them to kill themselves, why not bring them to professionals to try and work things out. Hard times and clinical depression are treatable.

Also, anyone who opposes this while supporting capital punishment is automatically a very illogical person.

... because?

Basically, by opposing this while supporting capital punishment, you are having these 2 beliefs at the same time:

1. The government should be allowed to forcefully kill people when they want to live.
2. The government should be allowed to force people to live when they want to kill themselves.

Which is a set of positions that supporters would have to have mutually exclusive belief systems to support.

There's nothing contradictory here. Different things are different.

One is consensual by the individuals doing it and the other has a horrible record of killing those who are either not guilty, punished extremely, and more likely to be given  to those who are marginalized by society.

[dead0man]

is there some overlap with the abortion issue here?  Many people support/defend abortion with the "but women are going to get abortions anyway" as a reason.  Doesn't that work here for the same reasons?  People are still going to do suicide even if its illegal....we know this, because it's how it is now.

It differs in that suicide deals with consenting people by themselves.

indeed, abortion takes the life of something that has given no consent.  This is just more reason euthanasia should be legal and abortion not.  (I do not think that abortion should be illegal)

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sure, people wanting to end it should have counseling pushed at them, but in the end, it should be up to the individual and there should be medical professionals available to help them.  Voluntarily of course.

[SATW]

Absolutely not.

[DC Al Fine]

is there some overlap with the abortion issue here?  Many people support/defend abortion with the "but women are going to get abortions anyway" as a reason.  Doesn't that work here for the same reasons?  People are still going to do suicide even if its illegal....we know this, because it's how it is now.

Well first off that's a stupid argument. The existence of crime isn't an argument against criminal codes. I really wish someone would take this to its logical conclusion and apply it to wife beating or child abuse...

Also, people's decisions aren't set in stone. That is, the decision to kill oneself or get an abortion is influenced by the circumstances one is in. Our mental health and palliative care systems are rather inadequate as are our supports for young mothers. It seems a bit perverse to legalize certain forms of killing while also exacerbating them through inadequate healthcare and financial aid.

[dead0man]

Well first off that's a stupid argument.

agreed

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agreed when it comes to harming others, it should always be against the law to harm people that don't want to be harmed* and it's a bad argument to say "well, a small fraction of men are going to rape, what's the point of making it illegal?"....but is it that bad when it's about self harm?  People are going to get high, sometimes in ways "normal society" doesn't approve of.  I think it's wrong to punish those people for choosing to alter their brain in ways your aunt Ruth doesn't approve of.  People were going to have gay sex 50 years ago, risking everything to do it.  People should be free to do whatever they want to do (as long as it't not harming anybody else).  That includes DMT, butt sex, bacon and suicide (now that's a fun, final weekend!  Better than rotting away in an old folks home surrounded by smelly old people, ignored by your children.).



*but then how far do we take that?  Parents of fat kids (with the obvious caveat that excludes the TINY percentage of fat people that are fat for medical reasons) are certainly harming them, do we punish them?  how?

[PSOL]

is there some overlap with the abortion issue here?  Many people support/defend abortion with the "but women are going to get abortions anyway" as a reason.  Doesn't that work here for the same reasons?  People are still going to do suicide even if its illegal....we know this, because it's how it is now.

It differs in that suicide deals with consenting people by themselves.

indeed, abortion takes the life of something that has given no consent.  This is just more reason euthanasia should be legal and abortion not.  (I do not think that abortion should be illegal)

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sure, people wanting to end it should have counseling pushed at them, but in the end, it should be up to the individual and there should be medical professionals available to help them.  Voluntarily of course.

In regards to the first issue there are arguments of the idea that until birth, the fetus is just a part of the mother, and thus since it is the mothers decision. Either way let’s get on topic, to the second you should look at the immensely poor care we have of individuals across the board. Even well off people who can afford help are stigmatized. So while I say yeah, go at your own risk, it almost feels like without such support we are pushing people to the rope, so to speak.

[America Needs a 13-6 Progressive SCOTUS]

Also, anyone who opposes this while supporting capital punishment is automatically a very illogical person.

... because?

Basically, by opposing this while supporting capital punishment, you are having these 2 beliefs at the same time:

1. The government should be allowed to forcefully kill people when they want to live.
2. The government should be allowed to force people to live when they want to kill themselves.

Which is a set of positions that supporters would have to have mutually exclusive belief systems to support.

There's nothing contradictory here. Different things are different.

Yes there are contradictory things here. Similar things are similar.

[DC Al Fine]

Well first off that's a stupid argument.

agreed

You must be logged in to read this quote.

agreed when it comes to harming others, it should always be against the law to harm people that don't want to be harmed* and it's a bad argument to say "well, a small fraction of men are going to rape, what's the point of making it illegal?"....but is it that bad when it's about self harm?  People are going to get high, sometimes in ways "normal society" doesn't approve of.  I think it's wrong to punish those people for choosing to alter their brain in ways your aunt Ruth doesn't approve of.  People were going to have gay sex 50 years ago, risking everything to do it.  People should be free to do whatever they want to do (as long as it't not harming anybody else).  That includes DMT, butt sex, bacon and suicide (now that's a fun, final weekend!  Better than rotting away in an old folks home surrounded by smelly old people, ignored by your children.).



*but then how far do we take that?  Parents of fat kids (with the obvious caveat that excludes the TINY percentage of fat people that are fat for medical reasons) are certainly harming them, do we punish them?  how?

Normally when arguing this with a social liberal, I'd just point out the obvious hypocrisy of opposing social conservatism on those grounds but then supporting seatbelt laws and a host of economic regulations. However you are a consistent libertarian so we can get to the meat of the issue:

There is a tendency in liberalism (both economic and social) to atmomize people in a way that doesn't really reflect how people  actually live. I dispute a lot of liberal claims of "they aren't hurting anyone but themselves". The distinction between harming only oneself and harming others is rather artificial when applied to real life situations.

Examples of this include divorce and drug abuse. Two parents can consent to a divorce but the act can still dramatically impact their children. Likewise I have yet to hear of a heroin user who didn't harm others in an attempt to feed their habit.

So if actions that only hurt oneself are a lot rarer than what libertarians make it out to be, should the state criminalize every vice? No. The state should weigh a variety of factors when considering banning or regulating vice including: how much it harms the user, how much it harms others, how endemic the vice is to a culture,  how much regulation would impose on citizens etc etc.

To use your example, making kids fat is bad, but the harm is relatively small, the infringement on parental rights is large and the potential for a government abusing their powers to take kids away is excessive, so I wouldn't favour regulating children's weight.

[DC Al Fine]

Also, anyone who opposes this while supporting capital punishment is automatically a very illogical person.

... because?

Basically, by opposing this while supporting capital punishment, you are having these 2 beliefs at the same time:

1. The government should be allowed to forcefully kill people when they want to live.
2. The government should be allowed to force people to live when they want to kill themselves.

Which is a set of positions that supporters would have to have mutually exclusive belief systems to support.

There's nothing contradictory here. Different things are different.

Yes there are contradictory things here. Similar things are similar.

One of the two examples hasn't murdered anyone you see. That's a substantial difference.

[Antonio the Sixth]

This would be bad. No.

[Mr. Reactionary]

It's my body ...

[Storebought]

Yes. I don't see what moral dilemma this is meant to pose.

[Goldwater]

No, we should build a mental health system worth a damn instead.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

To address the "fat children" issue, since apparently that's been brought up, it is something that should be handled at a geographic, economic, and social level, rather than through sending in government troops/social workers as the Vanguard Against Reactionary or Inadequate Parenting--restructuring subsidies and incentives, zoning laws and infrastructure, physical fitness programs, etc.

What is this thread about?

[IceSpear]

No, we should build a mental health system worth a damn instead.

I don't disagree, but there are lots of suicides that are not due to mental health issues.