Israel-Gaza war

[Open Source Intelligence]

I find this an interesting higher-level discussion on this war as far as Biden interaction than we normally get:

David Frum, The Atlantic

Biden making the same error w/r/t Israel that he previously made with Ukraine: trying to micro-manage from a distance somebody else's defensive war by limiting categories of weapons. This error doesn't limit war. This error prolongs war, by denying the ally the means of success.

Gregg Carlstrom, The Economist

A quick word on this. And I say this as someone who has been very critical of Biden for months. But this thread is sort of a funhouse-mirror reality in which Biden has been too restrictive of Israel rather than too indulgent of what has become an aimless war.

Biden hasn't "micro-managed" the war. He gave Israel carte blanche for months of ruinous fighting. Even when it came to Rafah, his position was that America would support an offensive if Israel came up with a plan to evacuate civilians. Which Israel, for months, did not do.

David Frum, The Atlantic

I often think the Biden foreign policy would produce more success if its architects were less clever. "Give the Ukrainians/Israelis enough that they don't lose, but not enough to win" is an idea to baffle all lesser minds.

The micro-management of Israel's war is one part of a much bigger scheme: an Arab force to police Gaza,  reform of the Palestinian Authority, a Saudi-US defense agreement, etc. etc.

Less clever people would have arrived at a simpler plan: fight Hamas until it's beaten.

Gregg Carlstrom, The Economist

Where David Frum is correct is the idea that many of Biden's post-war plans for Gaza were too clever by half. Any observer of the region could have told you they were unlikely to ever come to fruition (many of us have been doing that since October).

But this isn't a binary choice between Biden's fanciful plans and "let Israel fight until victory". Look at the past few months. Israel finds itself going back, over and over, to fight Hamas in areas of northern Gaza it had already conquered (it's doing so again this week).

Why is that? Because Israel withdrew most of its troops without any plan for post-war stabilization and governance. It left a power vacuum Hamas is inevitably trying to fill. Military force without political strategy doesn't mean lasting victory. It means endless whack-a-mole.

Yes, Biden is pursuing unrealistic ideas for post-war Gaza. But Israel isn't pursuing anything at all. Ask almost anyone in the Israeli military, and they will tell you the war has been adrift for months now because Israeli politicians refuse to even talk about what comes next.

If Biden had wanted to "micro-manage" the war, he would have understood months ago—as many analysts did—that the war would not achieve either of its stated objectives so long as Netanyahu refused to contemplate the day after. The logical conclusion from that analysis would be to restrain Israel. But he didn't do that. He indulged months of aimless fighting and expended huge amounts of time and energy trying to ameliorate Israel's own lack of strategic vision. You can call that many things, but "micro-managing" isn't one of them.

For sake of completeness, Frum's final tweet:

Biden will seek re-election in November on a foreign policy record that includes the fiasco of the Afghanistan exit,  inconclusive wars in Europe and Middle East, no new trade agreements. He needed one clear success. Israel's war could have been it. But no. Too simple.

[Silent Hunter]

Here is the thing: If Netanyahu doesn't finish the job and completely obliterates Hamas Israel will have the same problem again 5, 10 years from now if not earlier.

Israel must finish the Job!

What's the 'job' exactly?

Hamas don't appear to be 'obliterated'. Gaza has been. Tens of thousands of civilians have been 'obliterated'

Release the hostages? Israeli forces have released 3 through military operations. It killed 3 hostages waving white flags at them. 1 in a botched release. 3 by gas.

105 were released during the temporary ceasefire. Maybe 'finishing the job' could be done through you know, a ceasefire?

No, Hamas hasn't been obliterated, although it's capacity to conduct terrorist attacks has been rather degraded, as it has likely lost a lot of experienced fighters, rocket production facilites and weaponry. It will take a good while to get back, especially as the tunnels from Egypt won't be in a good state. It's come at a massive cost of civilian life, because what Israeli restraint existed previously died on October 7.

Getting hostages back has generally involved either a rescue or a ransom of some form throughout history.  Those 105 hostages were got back with 180 Palestinian prisoners, only around 20% of whom had criminal convictions. The rest will require more and possibly more violent people.

Israel hasn't defined the 'job' at the end of the day. The only way to prevent whack-a-mole would be a long-term occupation of Gaza, which Israel would prefer not to do.

I fear we may end up doing this again in a few years, which will be even worse for Palestinian civilians.

[Pres Mike]

Here is the thing: If Netanyahu doesn't finish the job and completely obliterates Hamas Israel will have the same problem again 5, 10 years from now if not earlier.

Israel must finish the Job!

What's the 'job' exactly?

Hamas don't appear to be 'obliterated'. Gaza has been. Tens of thousands of civilians have been 'obliterated'

Release the hostages? Israeli forces have released 3 through military operations. It killed 3 hostages waving white flags at them. 1 in a botched release. 3 by gas.

105 were released during the temporary ceasefire. Maybe 'finishing the job' could be done through you know, a ceasefire?

because what Israeli restraint existed previously died on October 7.

Western democracies aren't ever supposed to lose restraint. The US didn't lose restraint after 9/11.

[Red Velvet]

https://twitter.com/ryangrim/status/1788387072589381820?t=9gXvQzyyvQnBSuX3KkO_ag...

IRL, when a friend starts doing tons of sh*t, like doing crimes and drugs, do you help them continue by buying them more drugs to use and giving them more guns to rob OR do you stage an intervention for them to stop with that kind of bad life?

Sorry, but Israel is a pariah country in the world right now - except in USA - precisely because of its actions and US neocons and complicit neolibs are only helping it go further down that route instead of actually saving them. And US internationalist credibility is going away with them as well:

https://twitter.com/sahouraxo/status/1788959351324975269
https://twitter.com/tparsi/status/1788956169358209046
List of the countries that voted in favor and against. You can see that even US Western allies voted in favor (Australia; France; Japan) or at least abstained so that it would pass (United Kingdom; Germany; Canada).

Only 9 countries were against: The USA itself and a bunch of far-right pariah countries such as Hungary (Orbán); Argentina (Milei) and Israel itself (Netanyahu). Alongside some small islands.

https://twitter.com/_Rawaney_/status/1788962027773276338

[emailking]

Biden admin says it’s ‘reasonable to assess’ Israel used American weapons in ways ‘inconsistent’ with international law

The Biden administration said Friday that it is “reasonable to assess” that US weapons have been used by Israeli forces in Gaza in ways that are “inconsistent” with international humanitarian law but stopped short of officially saying Israel violated the law.

The report which was drafted by the State Department said that investigations into potential violations are ongoing but noted that the US does “not have complete information to verify” whether the US weapons “were specifically used” in alleged violations of international humanitarian law.

“Given the nature of the conflict in Gaza, with Hamas seeking to hide behind civilian populations and infrastructure and expose them to Israeli military action, as well as the lack of USG personnel on the ground in Gaza, it is difficult to assess or reach conclusive findings on individual incidents. Nevertheless, given Israel’s significant reliance on U.S.-made defense articles, it is reasonable to assess that defense articles covered under NSM-20 have been used by Israeli security forces since October 7 in instances inconsistent with its IHL obligations or with established best practices for mitigating civilian harm,” the report said.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/10/politics/biden-israel-gaza-war-report

[Meclazine for Israel]

Here is the thing: If Netanyahu doesn't finish the job and completely obliterates Hamas Israel will have the same problem again 5, 10 years from now if not earlier.

Israel must finish the Job!

Not even that.

The Palestinian's simply don't understand the basics.

If you kidnap their women and keep them in rape dungeons underground, when do you realistically expect Israel to stop bombing Gaza? The kidnappees' are reported to have been raped and tortured, if there are any left alive.

Why would you rape, murder and kidnap women and children? And then afterwards, say you are really happy, and will do it again?

The Israeli's are not going to stop hunting these militants for the next five years, even if it fades from the news.

Exactly the same thing happened with Japan. 2,400 US naval servicemen killed at Pearl Harbour.

The US subsequently killed 2 million Japanese people including a large swathe of civilians.

The 5-6 year blood lust timeline seems to be a human civilisation thing.

[Pres Mike]

Here is the thing: If Netanyahu doesn't finish the job and completely obliterates Hamas Israel will have the same problem again 5, 10 years from now if not earlier.

Israel must finish the Job!

Hamas simply don't understand the basics.

Fix that for you. I am a Palestinian and offended by this post

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Here is the thing: If Netanyahu doesn't finish the job and completely obliterates Hamas Israel will have the same problem again 5, 10 years from now if not earlier.

Israel must finish the Job!

Likud isn't going to eliminate entities like Hamas because they don't want to and because killing thousands of civilians is going to create more of a problem in the end. There needs to be a peace agreement like Bosnia and Republika Srpska had.

[Red Velvet]

Also, lmao at the notion that Hamas physically exists in its entirety in Gaza in order to justify destroying all of Gaza. It’s the same IQ kind of logic of Osama Bin Laden hiding in Iraq.

I think people who spread this kind of narrative understand it makes no sense though, they want the war for other reasons.

[Meclazine for Israel]

Here is the thing: If Netanyahu doesn't finish the job and completely obliterates Hamas Israel will have the same problem again 5, 10 years from now if not earlier.

Israel must finish the Job!

Hamas simply don't understand the basics.

Fix that for you. I am a Palestinian and offended by this post

Referencing the Palestinian's in Gaza who thought it was a good idea to invade Israel.

No offence intended. But facts are facts. If Gazan's want Hamas embedded in plain clothes, you have to accept the consequences. If Palestinian's in Gaza don't want this assertion, time for them to stand up and say no more to Hamas.

Most returned Israeli kidnappee's said the entire Palestinian population were complicit with their kidnapping. They were spat on, abused and offered no sympathy by the general population.

One girl said 100% of the Palestinians offered no help, sympathy, assistance to her the entire time she was held in captivity.

Isolating Hamas as this tiny subset of a larger group of non-offensive Palestinians is a debate for another time.

As a logical example, how many good Samaritan Palestinian's have returned a single Israeli from their kidnap hell? Given the Israeli occupation of Gaza, it is very simple to do.

The answer, my friend, is zero. Facts are facts.

[Pres Mike]

Here is the thing: If Netanyahu doesn't finish the job and completely obliterates Hamas Israel will have the same problem again 5, 10 years from now if not earlier.

Israel must finish the Job!

Hamas simply don't understand the basics.

Fix that for you. I am a Palestinian and offended by this post

Referencing the Palestinian's in Gaza who thought it was a good idea to invade Israel.

No offence intended. But facts are facts. If Gazan's want Hamas embedded in plain clothes, you have to accept the consequences. If Palestinian's in Gaza don't want this assertion, time for them to stand up and say no more to Hamas.

Most returned Israeli kidnappee's said the entire Palestinian population were complicit with their kidnapping. They were spat on, abused and offered no sympathy by the general population.

As a logical example, how many good Samaritan Palestinian's have returned a single Israeli from their kidnap hell? Given the Israeli occupation of Gaza, it is very simple to do.

The answer, my friend, is zero. Facts are facts.

I agree that the Palestinians should do more to oppose Hamas. But  there wasn't a vote on rather Hamas could wear plain clothes or not.

Obviously 99% of Gaza residents had nothing to do with the kidnapping. 99% had no idea where the hostages are, so how could they be spat on? If it was common knowledge, than the IDF could just get any random Palestinian to talk.

I agree the hostages have been treated horribly. But Hamas is a terrorist organization. We can't say Hamas=Palestine no more than we can say Taliban=Afghsnistan

[Meclazine for Israel]

Here is the thing: If Netanyahu doesn't finish the job and completely obliterates Hamas Israel will have the same problem again 5, 10 years from now if not earlier.

Israel must finish the Job!

Hamas simply don't understand the basics.

Fix that for you. I am a Palestinian and offended by this post

Referencing the Palestinian's in Gaza who thought it was a good idea to invade Israel.

No offence intended. But facts are facts. If Gazan's want Hamas embedded in plain clothes, you have to accept the consequences. If Palestinian's in Gaza don't want this assertion, time for them to stand up and say no more to Hamas.

Most returned Israeli kidnappee's said the entire Palestinian population were complicit with their kidnapping. They were spat on, abused and offered no sympathy by the general population.

As a logical example, how many good Samaritan Palestinian's have returned a single Israeli from their kidnap hell? Given the Israeli occupation of Gaza, it is very simple to do.

The answer, my friend, is zero. Facts are facts.

I agree that the Palestinians should do more to oppose Hamas. But  there wasn't a vote on rather Hamas could wear plain clothes or not.

Obviously 99% of Gaza residents had nothing to do with the kidnapping. 99% had no idea where the hostages are, so how could they be spat on? If it was common knowledge, than the IDF could just get any random Palestinian to talk.

I agree the hostages have been treated horribly. But Hamas is a terrorist organization. We can't say Hamas=Palestine no more than we can say Taliban=Afghsnistan

Out of respect to you, I will retire my rhetoric for now.

And given your knowledge on the ground, there is a larger story here.

[Pres Mike]

Here is the thing: If Netanyahu doesn't finish the job and completely obliterates Hamas Israel will have the same problem again 5, 10 years from now if not earlier.

Israel must finish the Job!

Hamas simply don't understand the basics.

Fix that for you. I am a Palestinian and offended by this post

Referencing the Palestinian's in Gaza who thought it was a good idea to invade Israel.

No offence intended. But facts are facts. If Gazan's want Hamas embedded in plain clothes, you have to accept the consequences. If Palestinian's in Gaza don't want this assertion, time for them to stand up and say no more to Hamas.

Most returned Israeli kidnappee's said the entire Palestinian population were complicit with their kidnapping. They were spat on, abused and offered no sympathy by the general population.

As a logical example, how many good Samaritan Palestinian's have returned a single Israeli from their kidnap hell? Given the Israeli occupation of Gaza, it is very simple to do.

The answer, my friend, is zero. Facts are facts.

I agree that the Palestinians should do more to oppose Hamas. But  there wasn't a vote on rather Hamas could wear plain clothes or not.

Obviously 99% of Gaza residents had nothing to do with the kidnapping. 99% had no idea where the hostages are, so how could they be spat on? If it was common knowledge, than the IDF could just get any random Palestinian to talk.

I agree the hostages have been treated horribly. But Hamas is a terrorist organization. We can't say Hamas=Palestine no more than we can say Taliban=Afghsnistan

Out of respect to you, I will retire my rhetoric for now.

And given your knowledge on the ground, there is a larger story here.

Thank you

To clearify, I am in America. I was born here. I have visited the West Bank though

[Red Velvet]

https://twitter.com/sahouraxo/status/1788696871449272750
Belgian television. Unimaginable in USA (and honestly, anywhere else outside Europe but for very different reasons).

Laki should be very proud. Europeans (people, not the government) in general have been the most overwhelmingly Pro-Palestinian voices in how much invested they are in supporting it. Seriously, looking online at people around my age it’s always some Western European who feels the most emotionally moved by the Palestinian cause.

In USA you see this in parts of the youth as well but the Israel institutional support and from older people is much bigger than anywhere else as well. So it’s much more of a 50/50 dispute where strong passion lies in both sides and if even protests against Israel are being criminalized, no way in hell something like that would appear on their TVs as some specific political speech is actively repressed within USA.

From outside the West, people have their positions/opinions on the matter but I wouldn’t say they’re as passionate about it as Westerners are, regardless of side. Which is why something like that would also never appear on TV while interrupting their usual programming, not out of repression or anything, people just don’t care as much to do that kind of stuff I think. Global South societies tend to be much more insular as the effect of globalization is not as strong to the levels of the West IMO.

This is an Union Strike.

We Condemn the Human Rights Violations committed by the State of Israel.

Additionally, Israel is actively suppressing Press Freedom.

Therefore we are Temporarily Interrupting our Broadcast.

#CeasefireNow
#StopGenocide

[OSR stands with Israel]

https://twitter.com/sahouraxo/status/1788696871449272750
Belgian television. Unimaginable in USA (and honestly, anywhere else outside Europe but for very different reasons).

Laki should be very proud. Europeans (people, not the government) in general have been the most overwhelmingly Pro-Palestinian voices in how much invested they are in supporting it. Seriously, looking online at people around my age it’s always some Western European who feels the most emotionally moved by the Palestinian cause.

In USA you see this in parts of the youth as well but the Israel institutional support and from older people is much bigger than anywhere else as well. So it’s much more of a 50/50 dispute where strong passion lies in both sides and if even protests against Israel are being criminalized, no way in hell something like that would appear on their TVs as some specific political speech is actively repressed within USA.

From outside the West, people have their positions/opinions on the matter but I wouldn’t say they’re as passionate about it as Westerners are, regardless of side. Which is why something like that would also never appear on TV while interrupting their usual programming, not out of repression or anything, people just don’t care as much to do that kind of stuff I think. Global South societies tend to be much more insular as the effect of globalization is not as strong to the levels of the West IMO.

This is an Union Strike.

We Condemn the Human Rights Violations committed by the State of Israel.

Additionally, Israel is actively suppressing Press Freedom.

Therefore we are Temporarily Interrupting our Broadcast.

#CeasefireNow
#StopGenocide

Saying it’s a genocide is literally Islamist propaganda and it’s beyond disgusting that Belgium is doing this

[LAKISYLVANIA]

Saying it’s a genocide is literally Islamist propaganda and it’s beyond disgusting that Belgium is doing this

Imagine i'd say something was Jewish propaganda... i would instantly be called an antisemitist.

While you can without consequences say something is Islamist propaganda...

You may like or not like my opinion, but I always was careful to make the distinction between the Israeli identity and the Jewish community, because not all Israeli people are jewish and not all jewish people are Israeli.

Secondly, also not all Israeli people endorse what is currently ongoing. I do not approve of the USA position as well, but clearly there are people around who strongly disagree with the government's position as the student protests have shown. That distinction also would be important to make.

[LAKISYLVANIA]

Laki should be very proud. Europeans (people, not the government) in general have been the most overwhelmingly Pro-Palestinian voices in how much invested they are in supporting it. Seriously, looking online at people around my age it’s always some Western European who feels the most emotionally moved by the Palestinian cause.

In USA you see this in parts of the youth as well but the Israel institutional support and from older people is much bigger than anywhere else as well. So it’s much more of a 50/50 dispute where strong passion lies in both sides and if even protests against Israel are being criminalized, no way in hell something like that would appear on their TVs as some specific political speech is actively repressed within USA.

From outside the West, people have their positions/opinions on the matter but I wouldn’t say they’re as passionate about it as Westerners are, regardless of side. Which is why something like that would also never appear on TV while interrupting their usual programming, not out of repression or anything, people just don’t care as much to do that kind of stuff I think. Global South societies tend to be much more insular as the effect of globalization is not as strong to the levels of the West IMO.

You're absolutely right about this.

I hope people will also understand more if i say i merely express what i consider the normal or majority view in Belgium that at the very least i'm not lying. I tend to think Atlas was a liberal / center-left forum, so i was very surprised to see most people here actually defend Israeli's actions, which in my opinion cannot be defended, and where genocide is the only appropriate term that can be used here. While on this forum, it was perceived as me merely expressing a fringe view, worthy of being banned according to some.

It's a good example of our different cultural environment and how it shapes people, but also how it's still a very institutional thing in the USA (& UK, and of course also controversial/sensitive in Germany due to their own history), where it is actually more taboo to express these kind of views, which imo is not a healthy way of looking at things.

___

Regarding Eurovision, Israel should have never participated in this edition, that's also what a lot of people think, even ones that are more neutral.

Given the precedent set by excluding Russia from the festival, and given that this officially non-political music festival would turn politically with including Israel, which the last 24 hours clearly have shown, not because of Belgium, but because of something else - at this moment still not very clear - occuring.

Outside the festival, people are protesting with Palestinian flags, inside the room people are turning their back towards Israel and boo'ing to protest Israels inclusion and war crimes. I can imagine this isn't fun to go through for the Israel delegation and singer, but Israel also had to change its lyrics because the original song lyrics more directly referenced the war.

It's also likely that Israel will win because of the televoting results from Italy (RAI) being leaked which suggests that Israel is basically winning likely because of the increased polarization and the fact that all people who sympathize with israel would vote israel, while all other people would have their votes divided over all other 22 finalists.

___

Today (or yesterday) there is also mysterious news, concerning the Dutch delegation, it's not clear exactly what happened but a lot of rumours talk about an incident with the Israel delegation, where physical violence was occuring. There have also been incidents between the Israeli and the Greek + Spanish delegation. But the Dutch delegation didn't show up for rehearsal and the jury performance, the dutch flags have been removed from the festival, the singer has defollowed all of Eurovision and this was headline news in most of Europe. The man responsible and in charge for hosting & organisation of Eurovision also didn't show up yesterday during jury vote & rehearsal of the candidates.

I think today more will start to be clear of what happened (but it's possible it's not even going to be related to Israel even), given some suggested it was physical violence targetted towards a photographer.

In general though, the problem is nobody even talks about the music anymore. A week ago, the favourites were Croatia and Switzerland based on their music and nobody is talking about them anymore. This has become a political event, and it's why Israel should have been excluded which most people agree with and where I think it's very likely the Eurovision organization regret the discussion.

And if Israel wins, the whole discussion starts again next year because the event will be hosted in Israel as the winner of last year hosts next year's edition. Expect several countries to withdraw from the competition if that actually turns out to be the case or if it would be happening (or to withdraw from EBU (European Broadcasting Union), where Russia also was expelled a few years ago from following the invasion of Ukraine).

[AtorBoltox]

Saying it’s a genocide is literally Islamist propaganda and it’s beyond disgusting that Belgium is doing this

Imagine i'd say something was Jewish propaganda... i would instantly be called an antisemitist.

While you can without consequences say something is Islamist propaganda...

I do not believe you don't know the difference between Islam and Islamism

[Silent Hunter]

Peace is unlikely considering Hamas and Israel won't even negotiate directly; they're having to go via an intermediary.

[Red Velvet]

You're absolutely right about this.

I hope people will also understand more if i say i merely express what i consider the normal or majority view in Belgium that at the very least i'm not lying. I tend to think Atlas was a liberal / center-left forum, so i was very surprised to see most people here actually defend Israeli's actions, which in my opinion cannot be defended, and where genocide is the only appropriate term that can be used here. While on this forum, it was perceived as me merely expressing a fringe view, worthy of being banned according to some.

It's a good example of our different cultural environment and how it shapes people, but also how it's still a very institutional thing in the USA (& UK, and of course also controversial/sensitive in Germany due to their own history), where it is actually more taboo to express these kind of views, which imo is not a healthy way of looking at things.

Oh I get this as I definitely feel a giant difference between expressing my views in a left-wing Brazilian environment and then saying the same thing in a foreign environment with Western people from everywhere, but mostly the USA.

But since you know lots of your beliefs are a direct product of the environment in Belgium you grew-up in, then it shouldn’t be that surprising to you that lots of people here are extremely Pro-Israel as they also reflect a product of their environment as well. Even the “US left” (aka liberals) has stronger cultural connections to Israel because it’s not an ideological “left vs right” matter like you suggest but a cultural background one IMO.

It’s interesting when you grow up and realize how stuff you saw just as some curiosity as a kid is actually tied to major political differences.

Like, the entire exposition to Jewish culture I had as a child/teen was from US cultural products where the characters were Jewish and at the time I never really understood why those characters were able to have special parties or celebrate different holidays. Important to notice that even with those cultural differences, those characters were always portrayed like part of the world environment, fitting in inside that world and not really defined MAINLY by their religion. They dated; had friends; personal dramas just like everyone around them.

Jewish characters are very predominant in USA culture simply because they’re a big part of USA, the only country with more people of Jewish religion than Israel itself.

51% of the Jewish population of the world lives in USA; 30% in Israel and everywhere else individually has 3% or less. So it’s very natural for that cultural exposition to be more significantly concentrated in these two places.

Whereas Muslim cultural exposition possibly seems much more spread out and decentralized across multiple countries, USA not being one of them though. Also not something I had any contact with at all until I grew older, not even with movies, though there is a significant Syrian and Lebanese influence (not necessarily Muslim at all though) in my surroundings.

All the thin exposition I had about Islam was probably the one passed by US cultural products as well - and I grew in the 00s - so it was that kind of thing where a movie character in a plane would be suspicious or prejudiced about a guy wearing different clothing and with Arab facial characteristics. The characterization of Muslims wasn’t always as something necessarily evil, sometimes they would focus on others prejudice towards them, however they always stressed how those characters didn’t really fit in into that world, how much “foreign” they were in that background.

So it’s fun when you grow up and realize that this “world” presented to you on TV is only an USA cultural bubble. And that things in the world itself are much much more complicated.

But because US cultural products are so much consumed worldwide, it’s probably what created the impression to many that Jewish prejudice is a thing of the very distant past while Muslim prejudice is a thing of the present. Which is not an universal truth at all. People tend to judge and see “the world” as it is presented by the USA products and it’s only in THAT very specific cultural US background where Jewish people are treated like part of the crowd whereas Muslims are not.

When you understand that, it makes more sense why average US Americans have the positions they have and how it contrasts with the “world” where everyone else has their own different cultural baggage as well. And because they always see themselves as the center of the world, they also often assume the “world” tends to (or even should) reflect their cultural backgrounds, which is why there’s such angry resistance to whenever that is contested by outside cultures, even one as Western as yours, but one that probably had somewhat more exposition than theirs towards Muslims.

Which is why they will look at you based on THEIR cultural context lenses, not YOURS. And in their cultural lenses, for you to minimally see Muslims as equals to others who fit in better their background (Christians; Mormons; Jews) will be instinctively offensive as Islam is presented as something primitive and savage in US culture, therefore being “lesser” deserving of respect.

It’s about culture, not ideology.

[Lief 🗽]

The explosion of antisemitism in Europe over Eurovision of all things (that repulsive statement from genocide extraordinaires Belgium, Greta (who has apparently declared mission accomplished on climate change) leading a lynch mob, singers from other countries being forced to publicly apologize for being friendly to the Israeli contestant, etc) has been really eye opening. Hopefully the poor Israeli girl wins and shows this is just an ugly, loud minority.

[GoTfan]

The explosion of antisemitism in Europe over Eurovision of all things (that repulsive statement from genocide extraordinaires Belgium, Greta (who has apparently declared mission accomplished on climate change) leading a lynch mob, singers from other countries being forced to publicly apologize for being friendly to the Israeli contestant, etc) has been really eye opening. Hopefully the poor Israeli girl wins and shows this is just an ugly, loud minority.

"Lynch mob" "Genocide extraordinaires"

Imagine if I used this sort of language to refer to Jewish people.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

The explosion of antisemitism in Europe over Eurovision of all things (that repulsive statement from genocide extraordinaires Belgium, Greta (who has apparently declared mission accomplished on climate change) leading a lynch mob, singers from other countries being forced to publicly apologize for being friendly to the Israeli contestant, etc) has been really eye opening. Hopefully the poor Israeli girl wins and shows this is just an ugly, loud minority.

"Lynch mob" "Genocide extraordinaires"

Imagine if I used this sort of language to refer to Jewish people.

If a mob of Jewish people were acting this like this toward a Palestinian contestant, you would be absolutely correct to do so. This mob also isn't remotely ethnically uniform - I would say it's actually being led by European activists.

[GoTfan]

The explosion of antisemitism in Europe over Eurovision of all things (that repulsive statement from genocide extraordinaires Belgium, Greta (who has apparently declared mission accomplished on climate change) leading a lynch mob, singers from other countries being forced to publicly apologize for being friendly to the Israeli contestant, etc) has been really eye opening. Hopefully the poor Israeli girl wins and shows this is just an ugly, loud minority.

"Lynch mob" "Genocide extraordinaires"

Imagine if I used this sort of language to refer to Jewish people.

If a mob of Jewish people were acting this like this toward a Palestinian contestant, you would be absolutely correct to do so. This mob also isn't remotely ethnically uniform - I would say it's actually being led by European activists.

I don't like the term 'lynch mob' in general because it has very specific connotations that most people aren't interested in hearing about, like the term 'genocide'.

Trying to insist that Belgians today are responsible for the actions of Leopold II over a hundred years ago is like trying to insist that Israel is committing a full-out genocide. Do I think that certain members of the ruling class in Israel want to murder every Palestinian they find? Yes, I do. Do I think that most Israelis would tolerate that? No, I do not.

[Hindsight was 2020]

It is nice to see in Belgium people who are actually morally consistent about being against a country committing war crimes on civilians and not picking and choosing when to find it bad based on who the US is allied with in the situation unlike some on this site