Let's have a calm, polite and substantial discussion about gender and sex

[Oakvale]

o look another thread about gender that turns into 'how to get laid' I'm sure that's exactly what this place needs

To be fair "you [plural or singular] need to get laid" could be posted in virtually every thread on the forum and would almost universally be appropriate and helpful advice.

Sure but going to this place for sex advice is...uh, yeah.

Yes, good point.

[Franknburger]

Anyways, we can't ignore the purpose of humanity- reproducing. It's not wrong for men to want to "get laid", that's what we're biologically supposed to do. Same with women of course. Of course another obligation for humanity is to survive long enough for our offspring to also be able to reproduce, caring for them in the process.

That's not to say that if you can't reproduce, you're useless. You can still fulfill the second aspect of humanity. It's why all gay people (who can be fit parents) should adopt.

I think the purpose of humanity is to decide its own purpose, not to let biology dictate it.

Sorry, that's the only purpose of any species. Sure, humans are sentient and all that, but we're still animals, and the purpose of animals is to reproduce.  Anything beyond that is necessary distraction.

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Sure, society pressures men to "get laid", but your inner biology is agreeing with it. Without societal pressure, we men would still want to f[inks] anything that moves- so to speak.

Most birds and mammals communicate in one form or another, and there is quite a lot of research on how isolation / lack of communication significantly affects life expectancy. You may of course tie communication into reproduction (the mating & offspring education aspects of it), but may also regard it as a distinct feature and purpose of developed animal and human life.

Sexuality includes a specific way of tactile, non-verbal communication, which does not necessarily have to do with "getting laid" (though it may lead into it). I once experienced myself and a Lesbian caressing each others' lower arm for some five minutes, without any intention from her or my side of taking it any "further". In today's culture, the ability for non-sexual, tactile communication appears to disappear more and more, except for certain professions (hairdressing, physiotherapy etc.) and sports (Judo, possibly Rugby). Dancing used to provide a culturally accepted space for tactile communication between both sexes, but has widely lost that function outside Latin America. That's quite a pity, as non-verbal forms of communication are typically less loaded with social constructs (including gender), and also provide alternatives for people who have  problems in verbal  person-to-person communication.

From the asexual posters here I would be interested to learn whether your asexuality also includes low affection to tactile communication (just as people's affection to music, another form of non-verbal communication, differs), or whether you have found other, non-sexual platforms to communicate "finger to finger".

[Antonio the Sixth]

o look another thread about gender that turns into 'how to get laid' I'm sure that's exactly what this place needs

To be fair "you [plural or singular] need to get laid" could be posted in virtually every thread on the forum and would almost universally be appropriate and helpful advice.

Sure but going to this place for sex advice is...uh, yeah.

Now you're not being entirely fair... Yeah, a couple times the discussion was deviated from its original purpose, but most people have actually played by the rules and we've had several valuable (if a bit weird) theoretical discussions.

And FTR, your input on these issues (from whatever angle you choose to take) would be very much appreciated.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Men and women both come in an immensely varied range of personalities, temperaments, and from all walks of life. Men and women both enjoy sex. Men and women both have issues, both individually and collectively.

There is also likely more variation within each gender than the " average" difference between the genders. Of course, most people are within the normal distribution, but there are always plenty of outliers in terms of behavior, personality, etc.

That being said-women have historically and to a significant extent , currently, face many challenges and obsracles that men don't face. Or to put it another way; women face or have faced discrimination, deprivation, etc. because of their gender, which is not something that men have really faced.

I think it is good to discuss and explore these issues, though challenging on an extremely male forum.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Some of you people are far, far too reasonable.

That is all.

[Marokai Backbeat]

THIS IS GOING TO BE LONG AND RAMBLE-Y AND PERHAPS INCOMPREHENSIBLE AND I APOLOGIZE.

Not sure why feminism is such a bad word.

I consider "feminism" as a term, and as a movement, unnecessary in 2013, and needlessly divisive and negative in general. I don't believe in the "patriarchy" and I don't believe in "rape culture." I don't think modern feminism is at all well equipped to handle the issues it's supposed to be solving, because as a movement it seems to waste more time complaining about things and finding people to blame, rather than coming up with actual solutions.

Latter day feminists fought for the right to vote and for social equality to men, and modern day feminists fight over the cover of People magazine and whether or not women are well represented in video games. It's such a dead-ender movement at this point that represents more of a petty special interest group than a real social movement.

I mean, just look at this thread for one reason I dislike feminism. Is it really about "equality of the sexes"? The name itself perpetuates gender roles by dividing individuals between masculine/feminine. Is that implying that feminine values are superior to masculine values? How does that lead to equality?

I believe in gender equality; the idea that men and women should be treated the same and have equal rights and privileges. That a woman should be able to treat me like anyone else, and I should be able to treat a woman like anyone else. That if I make a joke about a guy, and no one bats an eye at it, I should be able to make the same joke about a woman, or use the same terminology toward a woman, without someone getting creeped out and defensive by it. That idea is what gender equality means to me, and what I think it actually means. Instead, feminism is a movement that purports to support gender equality by only obsessively focusing on the needs/supposed-needs of only their gender.

Men have actual, checkable problems when it comes to being treated equally in society as well, but feminists don't really seem to bothered by it. Men get charged more for car insurance. Men get sentenced more severe punishments than women for equivalent crimes. Men are disproportionately sided against in custody cases. Domestic violence against men is widespread, but not taken nearly as seriously. Significantly more women graduate college than men do, and this is hailed as a great thing; but how is that equal? Shouldn't we be doing more to encourage men to enter higher education and graduate?

Feminism has no interest in solving those things, because it doesn't view them as that significant of a problem. That's just past 'male privilege' finally getting it's comeuppance.

There's also the fact that feminism seems to have this bizarre, prudish attitude toward accepting male and female sexuality, and sees any sexualized content in pop culture as somehow and without exception, demeaning to women. (Which leads me to believe that feminism seems to have utter contempt for women; apparently all expressions of female sexuality are just because they're silly, stupid girls just trying to serve men? Women can't be sexual in their own right?)

I hate throwing out random words from a word salad that some people probably think has no meaning; but I'm an egalitarian. Problems between the sexes will be solved when everyone simply treats them the same, irrespective of the sex. This isn't a "women's issue" it's a human issue. When individuals here grow up, and potentially have children (a frightening thought, perhaps), don't raise your children by saying "Timmy, don't you ever hit a woman." Raise them by saying "Timmy, don't you ever hit anyone."

Perhaps what is most destructive to this conversation is that feminists have successfully made mainstream the notion that nothing a man says can ever be considered in this conversation, unless, of course, you agree with them wholeheartedly.

[angus]

THIS IS GOING TO BE LONG AND RAMBLE-Y AND PERHAPS INCOMPREHENSIBLE AND I APOLOGIZE.

pshaw.  Never apologize for loquacity or for digression. 

Feminism certainly isn't about equality.  We already have a word for that so feminism must be something else.  Anyway, other than the unnecessarily insipid introduction, ironically set in ALLCAPS, I think it was a fine post and one with which I can agree without further reservation. 

[Kitteh]

Honestly, I don't have much to say about the idea that feminism is about raising women over men or that feminists don't care about any problems men have or w.e other than lol. The thing is, I've never encountered someone who actually believes these things irl. They're really just a vocal group on the internet, which makes sense because these kinds of chronically stupid misunderstandings can only happen from behind a computer screen. The bigger problem irl is general apathy, a sense that feminism is a past movement and why should we care nowadays, the so-called "post-feminism", which is very different from internet neckbeard anti-feminism.

[traininthedistance]

The fact that we have free will

I'm not entirely sure this is a fact.  We certainly have the sensation of free will, but that's something different.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Honestly, I don't have much to say about the idea that feminism is about raising women over men or that feminists don't care about any problems men have or w.e other than lol. The thing is, I've never encountered someone who actually believes these things irl. They're really just a vocal group on the internet, which makes sense because these kinds of chronically stupid misunderstandings can only happen from behind a computer screen. The bigger problem irl is general apathy, a sense that feminism is a past movement and why should we care nowadays, the so-called "post-feminism", which is very different from internet neckbeard anti-feminism.

As I've said previously, my view of my fellow forumites is a bit less negative than yours, and I think most of the people you cite have their heart in the right place, but just lack a proper understanding of the issue. I've been trying to explain the basics of gender studies, but my own  knowledge of them is very limited and you'd certainly do a much better job than me.

The fact that we have free will

I'm not entirely sure this is a fact.  We certainly have the sensation of free will, but that's something different.

Sure, free will at the fundamental level does not exist, since we are all a bunch of atoms reacting to physical laws and all. It doesn't change the fact that at our level of understanding, a human being is relatively free to make decisions through its own reflection rather than following animal instincts

[Beet]

Honestly, I don't have much to say about the idea that feminism is about raising women over men or that feminists don't care about any problems men have or w.e other than lol. The thing is, I've never encountered someone who actually believes these things irl. They're really just a vocal group on the internet, which makes sense because these kinds of chronically stupid misunderstandings can only happen from behind a computer screen. The bigger problem irl is general apathy, a sense that feminism is a past movement and why should we care nowadays, the so-called "post-feminism", which is very different from internet neckbeard anti-feminism.

This.

Personally, the fact that women are, in fact not equal anywhere in the world despite all of the efforts of the feminist movement is pretty obvious. Yes, there are issues- such as child custody, and education, life expectancy, and so on where women are favored over men, and these are important. And it's important that there are people who are working on them- but it makes sense that these people be men. After all, men are the most adversely affected by these issues, we are the ones who have the most stake and understanding there. So I understand why feminists, per se, don't work on these issues. And I think these exceptions are generally just that - they are still subordinate to the general kyriarchy of social relations, which men, (as defined by the kyriarchy itself - as are the whole concepts of masculine and feminine) are placed on a higher position than women. I would say it is less about men vs. women per se than analysis and social critique, in general. Which also extends to race, class, sexual orientation, disability, body and beauty standards, and so on. Actually, the older I get, the more firmly rooted I see that this hierarchy is in multiple ways.

[barfbag]

Honestly, I don't have much to say about the idea that feminism is about raising women over men or that feminists don't care about any problems men have or w.e other than lol. The thing is, I've never encountered someone who actually believes these things irl. They're really just a vocal group on the internet, which makes sense because these kinds of chronically stupid misunderstandings can only happen from behind a computer screen. The bigger problem irl is general apathy, a sense that feminism is a past movement and why should we care nowadays, the so-called "post-feminism", which is very different from internet neckbeard anti-feminism.

This.

Personally, the fact that women are, in fact not equal anywhere in the world despite all of the efforts of the feminist movement is pretty obvious. Yes, there are issues- such as child custody, and education, life expectancy, and so on where women are favored over men, and these are important. And it's important that there are people who are working on them- but it makes sense that these people be men. After all, men are the most adversely affected by these issues, we are the ones who have the most stake and understanding there. So I understand why feminists, per se, don't work on these issues. And I think these exceptions are generally just that - they are still subordinate to the general kyriarchy of social relations, which men, (as defined by the kyriarchy itself - as are the whole concepts of masculine and feminine) are placed on a higher position than women. I would say it is less about men vs. women per se than analysis and social critique, in general. Which also extends to race, class, sexual orientation, disability, body and beauty standards, and so on. Actually, the older I get, the more firmly rooted I see that this hierarchy is in multiple ways.

When it comes to women my thoughts are that they have it so much better in the U.S. compared to the middle east that no one should complain. Men have it better here too so I'm not complaining either.

[Bacon King]

I consider "feminism" as a term, and as a movement, unnecessary in 2013, and needlessly divisive and negative in general. I don't believe in the "patriarchy" and I don't believe in "rape culture." I don't think modern feminism is at all well equipped to handle the issues it's supposed to be solving, because as a movement it seems to waste more time complaining about things and finding people to blame, rather than coming up with actual solutions.

I wholeheartedly disagree with you so I'm going to be responding to a few bits of your post here.

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The fact that some people bring up trivial, meaningless things doesn't mean there still aren't legitimate gripes about societal gender biases to fight about.

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Equality does not mean they're identical. Treating men and women exactly the same is a bias towards men. Men don't pee blood every month which has been statistically linked to the fact that women on average have to take more sick days from work than men, for example. Of course there are bigger issues like that pregnancy thing and such but I'm just listing an example.

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Yeah and I can't make any jokes about black people these days, the civil rights movement only cares about the interest of minorities amirite

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Fun exercise: replace female with black and male with white and see if your sentences still sound reasonable!

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I don't know what kind of feminists you interact with but you're not describing the beliefs of any feminist I've ever met. I don't want to say you've built a straw-man but it sounds that way to my ears.

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Most feminists agree with you here you know

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[citation needed]

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

The real question is as to why someone would ever have to have a conversation about anything related to gender and sex ever in their lives. Even more absurd is the idea of discussing feminism, which is a human ideology.

[Marokai Backbeat]

I really tried to respond to that post, BK, but since about two thirds of it consists of stupid cheap shots, I really don't want to bother spending half of a post repeatedly denying I'm a sexist/racist/something-ist. Maybe you could get away with half of those cheap remarks toward Krazen or JCL or someone making that post, but I know you know better than to try implying I don't completely support equality wherever possible by completely misinterpreting my post.

I'll post here when I have something to respond to that isn't "lol you stupid neckbeards, brb spending all day in irc" or "OHOHOHO NOW REPLACE THIS WORD WITH BLACK."

[Bacon King]

I really tried to respond to that post, BK, but since about two thirds of it consists of stupid cheap shots, I really don't want to bother spending half of a post repeatedly denying I'm a sexist/racist/something-ist. Maybe you could get away with half of those cheap remarks toward Krazen or JCL or someone making that post, but I know you know better than to try implying I don't completely support equality wherever possible by completely misinterpreting my post.

I'll post here when I have something to respond to that isn't "lol you stupid neckbeards, brb spending all day in irc" or "OHOHOHO NOW REPLACE THIS WORD WITH BLACK."

What gives, man? I'll admit it's not a counterargument, just a few quick points I wanted to make, but I don't understand the personal vitriol you're directing at me here. I didn't make a full counterargument because if I did I'd end up spending like an hour typing it, which I don't really have the time for at the moment. But yeah, I sincerely apologize if you took anything I said personally because that certainly wasn't my intention.

[Kitteh]

Honestly, I don't have much to say about the idea that feminism is about raising women over men or that feminists don't care about any problems men have or w.e other than lol. The thing is, I've never encountered someone who actually believes these things irl. They're really just a vocal group on the internet, which makes sense because these kinds of chronically stupid misunderstandings can only happen from behind a computer screen. The bigger problem irl is general apathy, a sense that feminism is a past movement and why should we care nowadays, the so-called "post-feminism", which is very different from internet neckbeard anti-feminism.

This.

Personally, the fact that women are, in fact not equal anywhere in the world despite all of the efforts of the feminist movement is pretty obvious. Yes, there are issues- such as child custody, and education, life expectancy, and so on where women are favored over men, and these are important. And it's important that there are people who are working on them- but it makes sense that these people be men. After all, men are the most adversely affected by these issues, we are the ones who have the most stake and understanding there. So I understand why feminists, per se, don't work on these issues. And I think these exceptions are generally just that - they are still subordinate to the general kyriarchy of social relations, which men, (as defined by the kyriarchy itself - as are the whole concepts of masculine and feminine) are placed on a higher position than women. I would say it is less about men vs. women per se than analysis and social critique, in general. Which also extends to race, class, sexual orientation, disability, body and beauty standards, and so on. Actually, the older I get, the more firmly rooted I see that this hierarchy is in multiple ways.

When it comes to women my thoughts are that they have it so much better in the U.S. compared to the middle east that no one should complain. Men have it better here too so I'm not complaining either.

lol, cuz everyone in the US has it better than people in Somalia nobody in America should ever complain about anything amirite?

[barfbag]

Honestly, I don't have much to say about the idea that feminism is about raising women over men or that feminists don't care about any problems men have or w.e other than lol. The thing is, I've never encountered someone who actually believes these things irl. They're really just a vocal group on the internet, which makes sense because these kinds of chronically stupid misunderstandings can only happen from behind a computer screen. The bigger problem irl is general apathy, a sense that feminism is a past movement and why should we care nowadays, the so-called "post-feminism", which is very different from internet neckbeard anti-feminism.

This.

Personally, the fact that women are, in fact not equal anywhere in the world despite all of the efforts of the feminist movement is pretty obvious. Yes, there are issues- such as child custody, and education, life expectancy, and so on where women are favored over men, and these are important. And it's important that there are people who are working on them- but it makes sense that these people be men. After all, men are the most adversely affected by these issues, we are the ones who have the most stake and understanding there. So I understand why feminists, per se, don't work on these issues. And I think these exceptions are generally just that - they are still subordinate to the general kyriarchy of social relations, which men, (as defined by the kyriarchy itself - as are the whole concepts of masculine and feminine) are placed on a higher position than women. I would say it is less about men vs. women per se than analysis and social critique, in general. Which also extends to race, class, sexual orientation, disability, body and beauty standards, and so on. Actually, the older I get, the more firmly rooted I see that this hierarchy is in multiple ways.

When it comes to women my thoughts are that they have it so much better in the U.S. compared to the middle east that no one should complain. Men have it better here too so I'm not complaining either.

lol, cuz everyone in the US has it better than people in Somalia nobody in America should ever complain about anything amirite?

If any of us lived overseas or in a third world country we'd never complain again about things in the U.S. I've never met someone who lived elsewhere and wasn't thankful to be in our great nation. People just don't understand how good we have it. Instead they just want more.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Honestly, I don't have much to say about the idea that feminism is about raising women over men or that feminists don't care about any problems men have or w.e other than lol. The thing is, I've never encountered someone who actually believes these things irl. They're really just a vocal group on the internet, which makes sense because these kinds of chronically stupid misunderstandings can only happen from behind a computer screen. The bigger problem irl is general apathy, a sense that feminism is a past movement and why should we care nowadays, the so-called "post-feminism", which is very different from internet neckbeard anti-feminism.

This.

Personally, the fact that women are, in fact not equal anywhere in the world despite all of the efforts of the feminist movement is pretty obvious. Yes, there are issues- such as child custody, and education, life expectancy, and so on where women are favored over men, and these are important. And it's important that there are people who are working on them- but it makes sense that these people be men. After all, men are the most adversely affected by these issues, we are the ones who have the most stake and understanding there. So I understand why feminists, per se, don't work on these issues. And I think these exceptions are generally just that - they are still subordinate to the general kyriarchy of social relations, which men, (as defined by the kyriarchy itself - as are the whole concepts of masculine and feminine) are placed on a higher position than women. I would say it is less about men vs. women per se than analysis and social critique, in general. Which also extends to race, class, sexual orientation, disability, body and beauty standards, and so on. Actually, the older I get, the more firmly rooted I see that this hierarchy is in multiple ways.

When it comes to women my thoughts are that they have it so much better in the U.S. compared to the middle east that no one should complain. Men have it better here too so I'm not complaining either.

lol, cuz everyone in the US has it better than people in Somalia nobody in America should ever complain about anything amirite?

If any of us lived overseas or in a third world country we'd never complain again about things in the U.S. I've never met someone who lived elsewhere and wasn't thankful to be in our great nation. People just don't understand how good we have it. Instead they just want more.

No, what everybody in the West (but especially Americans) doesn't understand is how bad you have it compared to really advanced nations like the Scandinavians. TBF, America is probably better off gender-wise than some South European countries like Italy, but still that's not exactly a feat.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Listen, Tony, just because we don't spend allday riding around in wooden ships and pillaging coastal towns in Northern Europe, doesn't mean we're not advanced.

[Franknburger]

Listen, Tony, just because we don't spend allday riding around in wooden ships and pillaging coastal towns in Northern Europe, doesn't mean we're not advanced.

Which of the words in the thread's title did you have problems to understand?

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Listen, Tony, just because we don't spend allday riding around in wooden ships and pillaging coastal towns in Northern Europe, doesn't mean we're not advanced.

Which of the words in the thread's title did you have problems to understand?

Are you suggesting I suffer from reading comprehension issues? For the record, my comment had bought to do with gender or some other awful topic, but rather with Antonio's claims that America is not advanced, which I go d rather impolite, hot-headed, and unsubstantial. That said, however, I don't feel particularly inclined to follow the rules of a thread made by someone that even wants a discussion on issues of gender and such.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Listen, Tony, just because we don't spend allday riding around in wooden ships and pillaging coastal towns in Northern Europe, doesn't mean we're not advanced.

Which of the words in the thread's title did you have problems to understand?

Are you suggesting I suffer from reading comprehension issues? For the record, my comment had bought to do with gender or some other awful topic, but rather with Antonio's claims that America is not advanced, which I go d rather impolite, hot-headed, and unsubstantial. That said, however, I don't feel particularly inclined to follow the rules of a thread made by someone that even wants a discussion on issues of gender and such.

Sorry if you feel my comment wasn't really appropriate. In all fairness, this comment was a response to an at least equally unsubstantial post by barfbag.

I don't think America is not advanced (it certainly is by global standards), but I think that it should strive to do better by looking at countries that actually do better, instead of constantly engaging in empty self-congratulation. The same is true for other countries, of course.

[angus]

it should strive to do better by looking at countries that actually do better...

It would, and it could, if we could stop getting hung up on all this feminism and White Man's Guilt and all that.  France, for example, addresses inequality by economic and class level.  We, on the other hand, have all these "opportunities" for Hispanics, women, blacks, etc., rather than trying to help out those less fortunate regardless of their gender or ethnicity.  I'm not advocating the barbaric measures taken by your country in terms of repressing religious freedom and stifling free speech and telling school teachers and nurses what religious iconography they are and aren't allowed to wear, mind you, but I do agree that France probably does a better job at promoting true economic egalitarianism than we do, and it does so precisely because it doesn't get all hung up on race- and gender-based affirmative action.

[Franknburger]

I don't think America is not advanced (it certainly is by global standards), but I think that it should strive to do better by looking at countries that actually do better, instead of constantly engaging in empty self-congratulation. The same is true for other countries, of course.

To substantiate the discussion, have a look at the Global Gender Gap index (a link for downloading the full report can be found at the end of the hyperlinked Wikipedia overview).
The methodology is a bit questionable - in fact the index is not measuring gender equality, but  female development. The longer women live in relation to men, e.g., the lower the "gender gap" (quite bizarre, as men tend to live shorter than women). Similarly, education, a major area of male discrimination, is not rated as such. Nevertheless, it is the most comprehensive collection of worldwide gender indicators available.

And their 2012 rankings:
1. Iceland
2. Finland
3. Norway
4. Sweden
..
13. Germany
..
18. UK
..
22. USA
..
57. France
..
80. Italy
..
124. Turkey
..
131. Saudi Arabia
..
135. Yemen