Awaiting Trump's coal comeback, miners reject retraining

[IceSpear]

This is what happens when you pander to the poorly educated with blatant lies. These people objectively do not know what's best for them.

[IceSpear]

This is what happens when you pander to the poorly educated with blatant lies. These people objectively do not know what's best for them.

They obviously need a Hillary supporter to go down there and tell them what's best for them.

I know you need to meet your Hillary mentioning quota for the day, but could you at least address the actual point of the article?

[IceSpear]

This is what happens when you pander to the poorly educated with blatant lies. These people objectively do not know what's best for them.

They obviously need a Hillary supporter to go down there and tell them what's best for them.

I know you need to meet your Hillary mentioning quota for the day, but could you at least address the actual point of the article?

If you want people to trust you more than they trust some dishonest reality TV star, then don't treat them like dog sh**t.

It's not about "trust." It's about facts. Reality doesn't care about anyone's fee fees getting hurt.

[IceSpear]

You can't teach old dogs new tricks.

This is what happens when you pander to the poorly educated with blatant lies. These people objectively do not know what's best for them.

I bet both of you constantly wonder why the Democratic Party is routinely viewed as just as bad as the Republicans by most Americans.

I certainly don't wonder why factually challenged Americans like those in the OP view it that way.

[IceSpear]

I like to believe that people are smart enough to know that believe that coal isn't coming back, but living in a world of alternative facts can make people desperate for jobs go for what would seem to be salvation when it is just false hope. _{Notice that I avoided demeaning coal miners, Ice Spear}

You're not telling me anything I don't know. We all deal with wishful thinking and false hope in our lives. That doesn't give you an excuse to permanently live in a fictional reality though, much less blame blacks/browns/gays/women/Muslims for all your problems.

And I don't see how it's "demeaning" to say that someone doesn't know their own best interests when stories like this prove it.

[IceSpear]

I like to believe that people are smart enough to know that believe that coal isn't coming back, but living in a world of alternative facts can make people desperate for jobs go for what would seem to be salvation when it is just false hope. _{Notice that I avoided demeaning coal miners, Ice Spear}

You're not telling me anything I don't know. We all deal with wishful thinking and false hope in our lives. That doesn't give you an excuse to permanently live in a fictional reality though, much less blame blacks/browns/gays/women/Muslims for all your problems.

And I don't see how it's "demeaning" to say that someone doesn't know their own best interests when stories like this prove it.

Government works best when you have nothing but complete and utter contempt for the people you're supposed to be helping.

I have empathy for their situation. Not the deplorable way they respond to it.

Why would it matter anyway? These people supposedly hate special snowflakes and easily triggered politically correct liberals. Can dish it out but can't take it? I'm just "telling it like it is", the very quality they love about Trump.

[IceSpear]

A lot of people in this thread to have a R avatar.

I'm pretty sure an R avatar would be more fitting for the "leftists" who are far more concerned with defending poor white men than they are about defending the countless marginalized groups many of those poor white men despise and who they vote to selectively punish. I'm not sure why so many of you continue to insist their hypocrisy is morally justifiable. "Shaniqua in inner city Chicago is a welfare queen for getting food stamps, but I EARNED my disability check!"

Politicians have known for centuries now that as long as you tell the poor whites they're above those "other people", usually blacks but now extending to other groups as well, they'll happily support you. They aid and abet their own victimization, and they do so with glee. I have far more sympathy for those who deal with their situation without scapegoating minorities for all their problems.

Resentful and prejudiced whites fuel fascism, which leftists claim to vehemently oppose. Yet you then continue to make excuses for their deplorable behavior. Ironic.

[IceSpear]

Liberals: haha the electorate am i right? what a bunch of losers. only hacks try and appeal to the elctorate. it's lucky in the future we are majority minority, because all minorities will always vote for us lol

Liberals: why do we lose all the time?

I'm not the one asking the latter question though. I know why liberals lose: because they don't pander to and stoke the resentments of the worst and most deplorable aspects of the American public.

[IceSpear]

Liberals: haha the electorate am i right? what a bunch of losers. only hacks try and appeal to the elctorate. it's lucky in the future we are majority minority, because all minorities will always vote for us lol

Liberals: why do we lose all the time?

I'm not the one asking the latter question though. I know why liberals lose: because they don't pander to and stoke the resentments of the worst and most deplorable aspects of the American public.

"Winning elections is beneath us"

I find it kind of ironic that someone who constantly excoriates the Democrats for "selling out" and "not having principles" is now saying Democrats should pander to racists, misogynists, homophobes, xenophobes, etc. just to get points on the scoreboard. No thanks.

Oh, and Obama was a liberal who won twice. They inevitably will again when the voters get GOP fatigue.

[IceSpear]

American liberals are truly awful.

It's disorienting to read ostensibly left-leaning people sh**tting on coal miners for not getting on their bike and looking for work as if they're Norman Tebbit.  

It's even more disorienting to see maroon avatars only come out of the woodwork when the topic is about the plight of poor white men.

[IceSpear]

It's even more disorienting to see maroon avatars only come out of the woodwork when the topic is about the plight of poor white men.

I know that you're an extremely stupid individual with an IQ lower than that of a typical Golden Retriever, but you must at least be aware of the concept of 'the family unit' or of 'local economies'?

Lol. You're exhibit A of my point in that post, so I thank you for making an appearance.

If only the poor neglected white male coal miners were as lucky as the Black Belt and inner city ghettos which are written off as lost causes and left to rot.

By the way, if you're going to talk about intelligence, you should probably learn the difference between you're and your.

[IceSpear]

They aren't the same. White coal miners punch far above their weight when you compare the sheer number of them vs. blacks living in poverty. Despite being way less in size, they receive far more sympathy, attention, and help from politicians. It's the epitome of white privilege, ironically, considering they are frequently pointed to as a group that invalidates the concept. It's all about facing less barriers than a minority in a similar situation does, and also why it's mainly whites who overcome these barriers then preach about bootstraps. The double standard is annoying.

[IceSpear]

They aren't the same. White coal miners punch far above their weight when you compare the sheer number of them vs. blacks living in poverty. Despite being way less in size, they receive far more sympathy, attention, and help from politicians. It's the epitome of white privilege, ironically, considering they are frequently pointed to as a group that invalidates the concept. It's all about facing less barriers than a minority in a similar situation does, and also why it's mainly whites who overcome these barriers then preach about bootstraps. The double standard is annoying.

So is it not possible to acknowledge that the double standard is annoying while also believing that they deserve help?

I never said they didn't deserve help.

[IceSpear]

They aren't the same. White coal miners punch far above their weight when you compare the sheer number of them vs. blacks living in poverty. Despite being way less in size, they receive far more sympathy, attention, and help from politicians. It's the epitome of white privilege, ironically, considering they are frequently pointed to as a group that invalidates the concept. It's all about facing less barriers than a minority in a similar situation does, and also why it's mainly whites who overcome these barriers then preach about bootstraps. The double standard is annoying.

Hint: telling the white working class voters to go f**k themselves didn't work out last year.

As usual, no rebuttal to the actual point. And not only that, you proved it in the process. Lol

By the way jfern, I thought you were a fan of having principles, not saying whatever you needed to say to win an election?

[IceSpear]

Al has had a particular interest in coal miners since he joined the forum well over a decade ago. At that time he had a D-WV avatar and was still realpolitik. I don't think he's trying to imply that it's some sort of either-or going on between white coal miners and working class people of color, even if that seems to be the frame in which American partisan politics has developed. Now, sometime several years later he started getting off on insulting folks, which I have been on the receiving end of myself, and it's not a trait of his that I find elevates his esteem, either.

Oh, now the hatred is understandable...lol.

[IceSpear]

They aren't the same.

How so? There are plenty of differences (of course) but in both cases we see localised economic depressions, decaying physical environments, poor housing and public services, epidemic levels of drug abuse, low life expectancy, etc. In in both cases we see only symbolic support from the State; certainly we see no serious attempts to alleviate the situation.

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The old coalfields in the Eastern United States have received almost no help from politicians since the mine closures in the 1980s that plunged them into economic despair (not that they were doing well before, o/c). I suppose Robert Byrd did his best, but then so have various senior figures in the CBC in their districts, and that kind of thing is not a substitute for serious state intervention. These places are beyond politically irrelevant and Donald Trump turning up to gladhand doesn't actually change that. I mean, you are aware that the Majority Leader of the Senate went out of his way to tank the UMWA pension fund (causing further hardship for the hundreds of thousands of former miners who depend on it) out of political spite?

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The fact that Woke Thatcherism exists is deeply disturbing.

Symbolic support is better than no support. At least it calls attention to the issue. When was the last time a candidate made a name for themselves championing the plight of poor blacks the way Trump did for poor white coal miners? Even Obama, probably wisely from an electoral standpoint though not so much a moral one, knew to avoid that hornet's nest or risk a major backlash among whites.

I'm not saying coal miners have received tons of help. Just that it is disproportionate in comparison to their numbers. This is undeniable. And yeah, I'm well aware of what McConnell did. Yet these same people who he screwed over supported him overwhelmingly for re-election. Why is that? Oh right, because he was against the black guy in the White House. Just another example of voting against your own interests. Say what you want about "elitist liberals", but they wouldn't have done what McConnell did, even with an extremely unfriendly constituency. Yet they are supposedly the bigger evil. Give me a damn break.

I have no idea what you're talking about in your last sentence. How exactly is pointing out white privliege and arguing against the "bootstraps" narrative in any way "Thatcherism?" If anything it's the opposite. Unless that's just the new go to buzzword now that "neoliberal" is played out.

[IceSpear]

A lot of people in this thread to have a R avatar.

I'm pretty sure an R avatar would be more fitting for the "leftists" who are far more concerned with defending poor white men than they are about defending the countless marginalized groups many of those poor white men despise and who they vote to selectively punish. I'm not sure why so many of you continue to insist their hypocrisy is morally justifiable. "Shaniqua in inner city Chicago is a welfare queen for getting food stamps, but I EARNED my disability check!"

Politicians have known for centuries now that as long as you tell the poor whites they're above those "other people", usually blacks but now extending to other groups as well, they'll happily support you. They aid and abet their own victimization, and they do so with glee. I have far more sympathy for those who deal with their situation without scapegoating minorities for all their problems.

Resentful and prejudiced whites fuel fascism, which leftists claim to vehemently oppose. Yet you then continue to make excuses for their deplorable behavior. Ironic.

No shaquina should get helped, as should the poor white people of Appalachia. No leftist is saying not to help people in inner city ghettos, or the blackbelt, but what you're saying is that we should single out and not help poor white people in Appalachia..

I never said poor whites shouldn't be helped. But there's only so much you can do for someone who doesn't want the help, like the people in this article. The other problem is that the poor whites in question tend to either want help for nobody, or help only for themselves but not minorities. Shaniqua on the other hand does not tend to care if poor whites in West Virginia are benefiting from the same program she is. That's the disconnect.

[IceSpear]

They aren't the same. White coal miners punch far above their weight when you compare the sheer number of them vs. blacks living in poverty. Despite being way less in size, they receive far more sympathy, attention, and help from politicians. It's the epitome of white privilege, ironically, considering they are frequently pointed to as a group that invalidates the concept. It's all about facing less barriers than a minority in a similar situation does, and also why it's mainly whites who overcome these barriers then preach about bootstraps. The double standard is annoying.

It's not the case of sympathy, yes from conservatives the white people of Appalachia get more "sympathy",  but when it comes down to help, no, the poor people of appalachia do not get help from the government, which is the same for every poor group in the United States.

R-PA is a more fitting avatar with a thatcher signature.

Well, I guess that answers my earlier question about the Thatcherism thing.

Also, I'm confused. You want me to support the same party that poor white Appalachian coal miners do?  Also, I'm not sure what world you live in where someone with a -5, -6 PM score would be remotely comfortable in the Republican Party, lol.

[IceSpear]

American liberals are truly awful.

It's disorienting to read ostensibly left-leaning people sh**tting on coal miners for not getting on their bike and looking for work as if they're Norman Tebbit.  

It's even more disorienting to see maroon avatars only come out of the woodwork when the topic is about the plight of poor white men.

There are pretty of maroon avatars that criticise conservatives about the plight of poor minority groups across the country, it's only the fact that now maroon avatars have to criticise Thatcherite neo-liberals on the plight of the rural white poor.

I don't think IceSpear is even cognizant of the motivation behind our position on this issue or why we so much detest his position. He genuinely sees himself as being on the true left side which, from his perspective, I can somewhat understand. But he's mistaken though.

IceSpear is highlighting and strongly rebuking what he perceives as the rampant racism among the White working-class that motivate them to vote for right-wing, racist politicians like Donald Trump due to cultural/racial grievances. He's not entirely incorrect on this issue. There is a significant element of racism that motivates many within the White working-class. IceSpear is also correct in noting the structural inequalities of White privilege and how even the White poor have particular (relative) benefits when compared to, for example, the African American poor.

However, what IceSpear gets wrong is that he (a) is basing his understanding of White working-class motivations on voting results, which isn't an accurate depiction of this demographic group since it has low turnout levels due to alienation among large swaths of these Americans. Bigots are simply more motivated to vote than non-bigots, especially when those non-bigots simply see both parties as corrupt and voting pointless since it won't help their families. He also seems to (it's implied in his posts) believe that (b) the White working-class is more bigoted than other Whites in America, which is simply not true based on Psychological studies. IceSpear also assumes that (c) White privilege provides the White poor and working-classes with some substantially greater position over minorities in the same socioeconomic position, which allows him to disparage them in a way that he would never when discussing minorities. And he also seems to believe that (d) those of us on the Left are supporting White privilege by focusing on White working-class persons.

Let me tell you that we aren't focusing on the White working-class due to them being White. We're doing it because we notice the exceptional hostility directed towards these folks and we perceive them as a disempowered, disadvantaged group being attacked by a more powerful, wealthier group. We prioritize class-based issues since that's the primary center of power in our society - class status. Race, gender, sexuality, and so on are unquestionably important, but it's class that's the most significant of these intersectional systems of power. That's not to downplay the importance of things like institutional racism since they need to be addressed immediately, but we want to see the focus placed on all of the working class when discussing economic issues and the plight of the poor and working class. Dividing up the working class, whether through White racism or attacks upon Whites, isn't going to unify us along class lines against the mutual enemy of all workers, the ones who benefit from division - the upper class. So long as the workers remain divided, they're easy to exploit.

I must say, between this thread and the other one, you make very cogent arguments.

As for point C, I don't disparage them because they have white privilege. I do so because many of them frequently disparage poor minorities that they SHOULD have empathy for (welfare queens, takers, leeches, etc.)

Point D, it's not so much the left only, but the disproportionate attention they get among the entire political spectrum.

I agree with you that ideally people would vote based on their actual interests. But with the GOP continuing to transition into a white identity politics/racial grievance party with every passing day, I don't see that happening anytime soon. If anything the gap is only going to continue to widen.

[IceSpear]

They aren't the same. White coal miners punch far above their weight when you compare the sheer number of them vs. blacks living in poverty. Despite being way less in size, they receive far more sympathy, attention, and help from politicians. It's the epitome of white privilege, ironically, considering they are frequently pointed to as a group that invalidates the concept. It's all about facing less barriers than a minority in a similar situation does, and also why it's mainly whites who overcome these barriers then preach about bootstraps. The double standard is annoying.

Hint: telling the white working class voters to go f**k themselves didn't work out last year.

As usual, no rebuttal to the actual point. And not only that, you proved it in the process. Lol

By the way jfern, I thought you were a fan of having principles, not saying whatever you needed to say to win an election?

Everything else being equal, yes there is an advantage to being white, but when you are telling dirt poor whites in Elliot County Kentucky, that they have white privilege, you are really exaggerating how much being white helps.

Yes, that's exactly what white privilege is. The fact that all else being equal the white person will be better off. It was never meant to mean that every single white person is better off than every single minority, which seems to be a common misinterpretation.

[IceSpear]

Devil's advocate: is a poor white person in Elliot county better off than an equally poor black person in Elliot county?

Is that really devil's advocate? It seems like an obvious yes.