1968: The Rise of George Wallace and the South (Lahbas, Historico, Lt. Barnes)

[Lahbas]

Operation Cloudburst

Vietnam War, Part II

<sub>"Operation Cloudburst" was rather simplistic in its planning. Operation Firestorm was to continue indefinitely in conjunction with Cloudburst, since the objectives would have been relatively the same.
 
A diversionary attack would be made on the North Vietnamese defense lines along the DMZ, while the bulk of the American military would cut through Laos, razing any sections of the Ho Chi Minh trail they should come across. The hope would be that they could achieve the same success they had with Inchon in Korea, by surrounding the bulk of the NVA once it had been diverted to its border with South Vietnam.

At the same time, amphibious assaults would be launched at the Red River Delta, with the hope of capturing Hanoi and Hai Phong, and to capture Vinh, which forms the lynch-pin between the Southern and Northern sections of the country. The landings were not to occur until a week after the initial offensive, in the hopes that NVA forces would be diverted South within that time. Also, there was the fear of the People's Republic of China intervening in the conflict. Westmoreland suspected that once the PRC deployed men into the country, it was going to be very costly to root them out, and therefore advised that a defense line be established as far north as possible.</sub>

_{The offensive did not begin well. The diversionary attack went well, but the deployment through Laos quickly became bogged down in counter-insurgency operations with both the Viet Cong and the NVA. American military officials had underestimated the technical aspects of the Ho Chi Minh trail, and casualties began to mount. Still, supplies to Viet Cong forces were permanently disrupted as a result.}

_{The amphibious operations had better beginnings, with the Red River Delta and Vinh being captured relatively quickly. However, after that it became hell. Vinh found itself defending against thousands of NVAs, where they were already supposed to be relieved by the forces from both Laos and South Vietnam, but held out until it was relieved on April 2nd.}

_{In the Delta, attempts to take Hai Phong began to take their toll. One in three men sent into the city didn't make it out without some sort of injury, usually fatal. Efforts in the West were more successful, with the fall of Ninh Binh on April 14th, and American marines reaching the outskirts of Hanoi on June 9th.}

_{By the end of June, it had appeared that Operation Cloudburst had been largely successful. Over half of the NVA had been surrounded and forced to surrender, and almost two thirds of the country was under occupation. However, there were problems. The American military had already taken over 80,000 casualties since the beginning of the invasion, and those numbers looked ever higher as Hanoi and Hai Phong refused to fall. Attempts at negotiation with North Vietnam went unanswered.}

_{Back on the home front, the opinion of the war became sharply divided. Though controls had been passed on the media, forbidding media coverage of the ongoing conflict in North Vietnam, it was still relatively unrestricted in the South. With the appearance of ongoing success on both fronts, Congress generally supported the war once more. However, Wallace's approval ratings would drop to about 40% when the bodies began to return.}

_{It would take until September until Hanoi and Hai Phong would fall. No trace of the North Vietnamese government could be found. It was eventually determined that they had relocated to the Far North of the country, into its mountains and caves. The same was attributed too much of the nation's industry, with factories that had been considered strategic targets found bare of machinery. Westmoreland planned for another operation to secure the remnant of Communist territory in Vietnam, but it was quickly shelved by predictable events.}

_{Leader of the People's Republic of China, Mao Zedong, demanded on the 28th of September that American and South Vietnamese forces withdraw from North Vietnam, as it posed a serious threat to the national security of the PRC. If these demands were not met, he would be forced to secure his nation's security by means of force. The President would shove these remarks aside, "If they want their own Vietnam, we will give it to them, only ten times worse!"}

_{American fighters would observe the PLA crossing the Vietnamese border on September 30th......"}

- George Wallace and the Rise of the South, Harry Turtledove



"Now we will see who they [Vietnamese] fear more.....us......or the Chinese."

- President George Wallace Commenting on the Chinese Intervention



“Henry Marshal Davidson......Alexander Zemwalt Walters.....John Forbes Kerry......Franklin Jones Sullivan......”

- President George Wallace Reading List of August 3rd Deaths in Vietnam

Gallup Poll: August 30th 1968

Do You Approve Of George Wallace's Presidency Thus Far?

Yes             42%
No              46%
Unsure      12%

[Lahbas]

Comments?

[Mr. Morden]

_{American fighters would observe the PLA crossing the Vietnamese border on September 31st......"}

Great timeline, except that you may want to recount the number of days in September. 

[Lahbas]

_{American fighters would observe the PLA crossing the Vietnamese border on September 31st......"}

Great timeline, except that you may want to recount the number of days in September. 

Damn those 30 and 31 day months! I'll edit it. Anway, in my post, there is the end of what would have been a relatively successful political career. See if you can find it. First one gets a prize.

[hcallega]

_{American fighters would observe the PLA crossing the Vietnamese border on September 31st......"}

Great timeline, except that you may want to recount the number of days in September. 

Damn those 30 and 31 day months! I'll edit it. Anway, in my post, there is the end of what would have been a relatively successful political career. See if you can find it. First one gets a prize.

Well i'ts not so subtle. John Kerry obviously, which made my hair stand on end just because it was so well delivered! This timeline is really something.

[Lahbas]

<sub>“……..we were operating the PCF-42 on the Red River when it happened. John Kerry had been made our commander a couple months ago……but we already considered him a brother. We were tasked with making sure that supply routes along the river remained clear of the NVA…….which at this point was already nearing total extinction. Knowing the Lieutenant had already been through such missions in the South…….well……..we were sure that we would encounter no major problems. It had been rumored that we were to return to the States within the week, due to the large successes on the front. This invigorated us to do our best to stay alive…….or maybe made us too confident to care…”

“It was nineteen hundred hours when we were attacked. Henry saw commotion in the shrubs on the east bank of the river……and opened up with the fifty cal. If he had spotted it sooner….we might have made it in one piece. As it is….they had managed to get on rocket off…….and it was enough. I…..along with the rest of the crew was thrown off the boat into the now temporarily violent river…….that is……except for Henry. He had been caged in by the metal guards that kept him in position next to the gun. We could only hope that he was taken instantaneously…….and not forced to bleed to death beneath the waterline.”

“Me…….Dirk…….and Jack proceeded to swim toward the shore…….and then noticed that John wasn’t moving. He was floating temporarily……but he was getting lower in the water every time the water bobbed him up and down…..and there was a noticeably large patch of red surrounding him. Together we swam him to the west bank and then took in his condition. As far as we knew……and any doctor would know….he was a goner. John had taken shrapnel across most of his face and chest……which was bleeding profusely…probably some major arteries having been cut. One of his eyes was also largely gone…..or rather deflated…..with some whitish fluid leaking from both it and the socket.”

“Luckily for him…..he was either unconscious…..or so far out that he could not feel or comprehend anything. Still……we stayed by his side until he passed. Two minutes after we reached that shore…..John had left this world for the next. We proceeded to carry his body to one of the supply roads we had been asked to protect……and only had to wait three hours for the next convoy. We would finally get back to port with John two days later……and there separated with him as he became the one of many…..waiting for his ride back to the States.”

“On August 8th…….we all went home….”</sub>

- Excerpts from "Patrol on the River Styx", by Christopher MacLohain

[Historico]

Well, I guess Kerry won't become President ITTL either, any update on Johnny Boy McCain and the rest of the POW's? Doesn't seem like Wallace is going to be capitualte to call's to withdrawl troops anytime soon.  Any updates on what legislation Wallace might try to get passed Domestically? He was pretty a pretty big staunch supporter of the Great Society Programs, so I don't thionk alot of them might go a way but he might streamline them for the war...Keep it comming Lahbas.

[Lahbas]

Well, I guess Kerry won't become President ITTL either, any update on Johnny Boy McCain and the rest of the POW's? Doesn't seem like Wallace is going to be capitualte to call's to withdrawl troops anytime soon.  Any updates on what legislation Wallace might try to get passed Domestically? He was pretty a pretty big staunch supporter of the Great Society Programs, so I don't thionk alot of them might go a way but he might streamline them for the war...Keep it comming Lahbas.

I wanted to get Vietnam over and done with first before I moved to the Domestic Front. I probably should have combined the two, but I couldn't find a way to make it work well.

Also, does anyone know how to get SVG files on here? The gallery won't accept them, so I was wondering if there was a way to maybe convert them to a more acceptable format.

[Lahbas]

Liberation of the South

Vietnam War Part III

_{"While Westmoreland was able to largely apply his methods in North Vietnam, Lewis William Walt was able to concentrate on winning over the people in South Vietnam. The Vietcong still had a stranglehold over the region's countryside, but the urban areas were secure shortly after the beginning of Operation Firestorm. General Walt, in order to combat the Viet Cong, wished to follow an established idea known as the Combined Action Program. Small platoons of men (15-30) would garrison the local villages throughout the countryside and in the jungles, working with local militias to root out existing Viet Cong elements. At the same time, these soldiers would gain the trust of the villagers, aiding in simple affairs such as farming, construction, etc."}

_{"Walt had overseen the program since its beginnings in 1965, and when it was expanded during 1966 and 1967. However, it was not until George Wallace became President, and Walt personally championed the program to him, that it was adopted as actual military strategy. Still, the program called for more manpower than the US military was able to appropriate, and they had to form joint-platoons with ARVAN units."}

_{"By the middle of 1968, the Viet Cong had, for the most part, been driven out of Southern Vietnam, as more villages were secured, and their inhabitants joined with the Popular Forces (South Vietnamese equivalent of the US National Guard). This decline of power is attributed to two major reasons. One, Operation Firestorm had for the most part prevented all shipments to Viet Cong forces in Southern Vietnam, and supplies were becoming increasingly scarce. Two, the Combined Action Program had gone a long way of dispelling much of the propaganda used by the Viet Cong in their recruiting programs, and thus they found it harder to find potential militants."}

_{"By the end of 1968, the Viet Cong as a political and military force were considered largely destroyed, though they would continue as a terrorist organisation within the Republic of Vietnam well into the 1980's, covertly being supported the Soviet Union."}

- "The Rise of George Wallace and the South", Harry Turtledove


"Mr. President.......we have won the hearts of the Vietnamese people. The Viet Cong are defeated."

- General Lewis William Walt reporting on the success of the Combined Arms Program.


"The revolution is inevitable. The people will have victory"

- Unknown captured member of the Viet Cong, shortly before his execution.

[Lahbas]

I guess there is no interest left in this project.......

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Continue, please

[Captain Chaos]

Continue, please

Seconded.

[Historico]

I just still thinks its funny how, Turtledove is actually a true Historical Writer ITTL...I wonder how is the American Party seats in Congress doing? Will there be a call for a more parlimentary system of government ariving in Congress? Keep it comming.

[Lahbas]

I am sorry that I haven't been able to update this as much as I have meant to. I'll try to squeeze one in either tonight or tommorow. I have a number of questions for my viewers, however, which (might) also determine the path of this TL.

1) How would Wallace deal with the economic crisis, including the American Dollar?

2) What is your take on the path the Vietnam War will now take?

3) How would Wallace streamline the Great Society, while making it better?

4) What level of infighting is there in Wallace's cabinet?

5) Who would Wallace nominate to the Supreme Court (including possibly failed nominations)?

6) Can Wallace win Reelection come 1972?

[Lahbas]

Since there seems to be little to no interest in this TL, I have decided to put it in hiatus

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

NO!

I think Wallace will have, regardless of everything, a thought time in winning 1972 race, as 1968 was still afluke. And I want to see what next.

And don't worry, Lahbas, I frequently lost a faith in my TL after no replies.

[Lahbas]

The Vietnam War Part IV

"The Enemy of My Enemy is My Friend"

^{- Frontline as of the 1st of February 1970}

<sub>"By February of 1970, the Chinese had failed to achieve much in their drive toward Hanoi, and this was exasperated by a number of factors. The Vietnamese, who they expected to welcome them as liberators, almost immediately began attacking troop columns and supply lines, the PRV government in exile proclaiming the intervention as "Chinese Imperialism". Attempts to set up a PRC-friendly government failed miserably when the council’s leaders were captured and executed just outside of Lang Son."

"The Chinese military still used doctrines based from the Chinese Civil War and the Korean War, depending on the absorption of casualties until the objective was obtained. Neither the Air Force nor the Navy was used in any capacity to support the ground troops, though this quickly after the first month became moot, following the destruction of both arms by the American military. Communications between units were weak and ineffective, and military units had to depend upon runners to get orders and information from one unit to another. Logistics and transport systems were outdated by the times. Weapons that were employed in battle were of poor quality, and thus often showed terribly when employed in battle. ”

 “The Chinese participation in the Vietnamese War would lead to a reformation of the armed forces, though this would only be accomplished over a number of years. At the same time, weapons and training were sought from their former allies the Soviet Union, leading to a rapprochement between the Bear and the Dragon…..”</sub>
- The Chinese War in Vietnam, Peter Arnett

^{- Destroyed Chinese tank in North Vietnam. The insurgency had quickly proven problematic, though the archaic command structure of the Chinese Army prevented any effective solution being employed.}

“We decided that……..in this war…….we had to ally ourselves with the Americans. After Ho Chi Minh died…….he made us swear……..to drive out our white oppressors. But…..that was before…..the vile Chinese once again…….invaded our land. I decided that……..while we could not……..trust both………the Americans would……eventually…..leave. The Chinese…….would not.”
- Ton Duc Thang in an interview with NBC regarding the Vietnam War, August 29th 1981


<sub>“The American alliance with the North Vietnamese has drawn ended all fears of a prolonged insurgency in Vietnam for the time being. There had been fear that they might ally themselves with the Chinese, the ensuing months had proven that the Vietnamese were not willing to be subjugated by any nation, whatever the political system. To the President, who had whole heartedly believed in the domino theory, he began to ponder on its truthfulness. He would personally meet Ton Duc Thang on April 19th, 1970, and despite different political views, the two quickly became personnel friends. However, the war had yet to be won.”

“The President desired a knockout blow, one that would not make the Chinese push the nuclear trigger, but one that would make the government sue for peace.  Many plans were put forward, including dropping paratroopers on Beijing, and occupation of Shanghai, even a naval bombardment of the entire coastline. However, it was Operation Xue Yue that caught his interest the most. After reading it through a number of times, he gave the order to carry it out……”</sub>
- The Rise of George Wallace and the South, Harry Turtledove


"I’m telling you.....Thang seriously cares about those people. I didn't think I would ever meet a communist leader who truly gave a sh-t about the common folk........but that man is walking proof that I am wrong."
- George Wallace after his meeting with Ton Duc Thang at Shangri-La


"The people of China will never make peace with the forces of tyranny........until the people of Vietnam are liberated from the fascist regime......imposed by the American aggressors. We will win this war.......as it is inevitable. In the last twenty five years.....we have defeated the two greatest enemies of our China........Japan and the Kuomintang. Now.....we are threatened by the American eagle......whose talons tear apart our peaceful homes on the coasts.......and murder our women and children....who have done nothing to provoke such actions. At the same time.....our men keep them from entering China........from occupied Vietnam......bravely giving their lives for our freedom. And the Americans have asked for peace. Well.....I have this to say to them. We........the people of China.......will not cease to fight.......until our brothers in Vietnam are liberated.........until the people's flag flies upon the staffs in Saigon........and until the people have total victory!"
- Mao Zedong's Speech to the People, May 3rd 1970

[Historico]

I am sorry that I haven't been able to update this as much as I have meant to. I'll try to squeeze one in either tonight or tommorow. I have a number of questions for my viewers, however, which (might) also determine the path of this TL.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Intersting, I really dont see the economic picture being that sour for Wallace, as things really did start to hit the fan till from about 1973, with the aftermaths of the Yim Kippur War, Oil Crisis etc. Nixon was pretty paranoid about Inflation and non economic growth(He felt like that's what cost him the 1960). So I'm sure that Wallace probably won't index social security, and probably won't be in favor of expanding the Welfare State. He may actually cut funds for black Urban Housing in the north to funnel money to Infrastructure projects to help the South Industrailize.

2) What is your take on the path the Vietnam War will now take?
Im not' to sure, I have to continue to do research on...as Vietnam really isn't my area of expertise in Cold War America.

3) How would Wallace streamline the Great Society, while making it better?
Like I stated above, I have a feeling that he would continue alot of the programs he enacted while Governor of Alabama. He might incur major Tax subsidies for Northern Bussiness to come into the South and help make use of alot of the south's untapped resources(Like the Lumber industry, Sugar Cane ethanol, stuff like that). Education reform may be a hughe Domestic agenda that Wallace wll try to accomplish, he was a big proponet of Junior Colleges...So maybe more Government Grants to help faclitate those schools?

4) What level of infighting is there in Wallace's cabinet?
I would imagine not much, I still think that Wallace and Rhodes relationship would be a very helpful one.


5) Who would Wallace nominate to the Supreme Court (including possibly failed nominations)?
Southern Conservatives mostly, so essentially simmilar to who Nixon tried to put up

6) Can Wallace win Reelection come 1972?
If he wins a strong and clear Victory in Vietnam maybe, I tend to doubt it esp if his abuses of COINTELPRO and Racist Campaign styles continue. Rhodes may have a chance if Wallace is assasinted by Brewer ITTL

[Lahbas]

The Vietnam War Part V

The Invasion of Hainan

_{“Operation Xue Yue, or the invasion of Hainan was meant to be completed in three stages. In stage one, airborne forces would secure the airports at Folou, Lingshui, Jialkishi, and Haikou. Marines would secure beachheads on multiple locations around the island, overwhelming any opposition that may exist or remain among the population and the People’s Liberation Army. Stage two would surround the mountainous terrain where there are expected to be stragglers and partisans, including the capture of vital supply corridors through the valleys, and remaining villages. Stage three would involve a slow counter-insurgency rather than a massive push through the mountains, which was deemed too-costly by the Chiefs of Staff. The operation was originally set for May 2nd, but poor weather conditions postponed it to May 5th. On that day, 180,000 Americans descended upon their objective…..”}
-   Drop Over Paradise, Scott M. Harrison

<sub>“Resistance on the island was surprisingly low compared to that previously estimated by the CIA. While unexpected resistance was met in Folou (including the razing of much of the airbase), most surrendered after short pitched battles or melded back into the population. Hainan was effectively occupied in less than nineteen days.

Historians have since found that the American blockade made the Chinese military reluctant to try and commission a large force to the island, in the case it might be trapped and out of supply. What was counted upon by PLA was that the Americans would be entirely committed to military action in Vietnam, and not want to expand the war outside of the region. The CIA before the invasion reported that there were about one hundred twenty thousand PLA regulars stationed on the island, including a well armed populace trained to fight against the “imperialistic Americans”; instead, there were no more than thirty thousand regulars, with another twenty five thousand militia.

President George Wallace was, despite his happiness over the lack of bloodshed in the taking of the island, furious over the serious inaccuracy in the data supplied by Central Intelligence. He considered over a number of days to replace Richard Helms with someone who he considered more competent, but ultimately gave him a second chance, in return for compliance with all efforts to increase the efficiency of the Agency.”</sub>
-   Rise of George Wallace and the South, Harry Turtledove



_{“The fall of Hainan also lead to the fall of Mao Zedong. The lack of planning, or rather the lack of foresight on a series of major defeats by American and Vietnamese forces against the PLA began to put major strain on a population that wanted victory. Worried party leaders began to become desperate when Mao even suggested that the nuclear option could be put on the table. Knowing that it would almost certainly lead to the end of China as a nation, Jiang Qing and the others of the Gang of Four personally assassinated him in the Spring Lotus Chamber, before themselves being discovered and gunned down by elements of the guard. Huo Guofeng, despite being a relatively inexperienced member of the Communist Party at the time, managed to climb the rungs of power over other such influential figures like Deng Xiaoping. One of his first major motions upon becoming the new effective leader of the People’s Republic of China was to propose peace with the Americans….”}
-   A History of China, Yong T’ao


“Well it is about damn time someone found some common sense in that godforsaken country.”
-   George Wallace upon hearing of the assassination of Mao Zedong

[Historico]

Wow, I wonder if Wallace had anything to do with Mao being assassinated? Anyway's awesome latest installment Lahbas, I would have more to comment on but Like i said The Vietnam War really isn't my strong point. When can we expect to see an installment on how things are going Domestically for the nation's 37th President?

[Lahbas]

Wow, I wonder if Wallace had anything to do with Mao being assassinated? Anyway's awesome latest installment Lahbas, I would have more to comment on but Like i said The Vietnam War really isn't my strong point. When can we expect to see an installment on how things are going Domestically for the nation's 37th President?

Well.......that is more your strong suit actually now isn't it Historico? To be honest I am really running on your comments in regards to plans for the Domestic Situation, but I am still determining how successful he will be with the intial congress before the 1970 congressional elections.

As to Wallace's involvement........I'll let the readers determine that.


Actually, there was supposed to be a massive operations map at the top of the page to show how complex it really was, but the finished one I had I found was 100 bits to big. After that I did not feel like doing another one.