UK General Discussion:The Rt. Hon Alex Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, Populist Hero

[CumbrianLefty]

If correct, its estimate of how many 2017 non-voters went Tory last year is a genuine "scoop".

(and explains how some were surprised by the scale of Labour's reverses in the "red wall" - claims that not that many Labour voters were going Tory may have been right, but still didn't save them)
 

[CumbrianLefty]

That may have been a factor sure, but I think all else pales into insignificance compared to having a simple three word slogan that both resonated and bore constant repetition.

May never had anything as compelling as "GET BREXIT DONE!"

[CumbrianLefty]

I can't see Jenrick resigning. The Cabinet Secretary's investigation has been closed on the say-so of the PM and Johnson seems to be working on the basis that nobody resigns for anything.

Which is perhaps unsurprising when you consider he's been fired from two jobs for dishonesty.

Nobody ever resigning over anything ever may "work" for you in the short term, but its hard to see how it doesn't fall prey to both voter disenchantment and internal strife sooner or later.

[CumbrianLefty]

Ridiculous decision, she needed a dressing down at the most.

(not least because it is a *fact* that several US police forces have had Israeli training)

And you have to wonder what his deputy thinks - odds of her taking over before the next GE have just shot up, I reckon.

[CumbrianLefty]

An unfortunate no-win scenario for Starmer - he obviously had no choice but to sack her, but it's going to reopen quite a lot of wounds. The last thing Labour needs right now is the left growing an even bigger victim complex.

Of course he did, don't be ridiculous. A dressing down and apology from RLB for her "carelessness" would have satisfied all but the headbangers (who are never going to vote Labour anyway)

Impossible to see any good coming from this.

[CumbrianLefty]

Rebecca Long-Bailey sacked from the Shadow Cabinet for sharing a highly questionable interview from Maxine Peak, which claimed that the murder of George Flloyd was because the Israeli Secret Services had trained the police.

A new front in the forever war is open.

Of all the conspiracies to emerge from this era of uncertainty, this one is is almost the weirdest. For example, the 5G one is at least grounded in a faulty conclusion that both the virus and the 5G rollout occuring at the same time is more than a coincidence.

It is a simple reality, on the record, that several US police forces (including Minnesota's) have been trained by Israeli outfits. Now, I agree it is possible to do the usual AS conspiracies out of that - but the basic facts are not in dispute.

[CumbrianLefty]

An unfortunate no-win scenario for Starmer - he obviously had no choice but to sack her, but it's going to reopen quite a lot of wounds. The last thing Labour needs right now is the left growing an even bigger victim complex.

Of course he did, don't be ridiculous. A dressing down and apology from RLB for her "carelessness" would have satisfied all but the headbangers (who are never going to vote Labour anyway)

Impossible to see any good coming from this.

Really?

You'd think after God knows how long of Labour failing to do anything to address a massive problem that a senior member of the Shadow Cabinet would be allowed to get away with sharing anti-semitic conspiracy theories? Making her say sorry and that she won't do it again would just reinforce the perception that the leadership doesn't give a sh!t about the issue and that nothing has changed except the name of the leader. It is an unfortunate situation no doubt, but Starmer functionally did not have a choice.

What, that Israel has trained US police forces?

[CumbrianLefty]

But there is no evidence that RLB endorsed such theories - indeed, she has been attacked by some on the Labour left in recent years for being too "accommodating" towards Jewish organisations.

Many people will see it as basically unfair - she deserved censure perhaps, but not sacking.

I will still support Starmer personally, but on a rather more conditional basis than before.

[CumbrianLefty]

Either way anybody with political acumen would know that it would court controversy - Israel always does these days apparently - so to share it when there is an anti-Semitism report coming out is just staggeringly ignorant and self-destructive.

There is that, yes.

But it still looks like an over-reaction. She should have been made to apologise for being careless, but that should have been it - I might think otherwise about certain people but (as I just said) RLB's past record on these things has been pretty sound.

I just think it is going to bring about a huge amount of strife for little obvious benefit.

[CumbrianLefty]

Well we shall see what transpires. I still think this will get Starmer a lot of grief for little benefit.

[CumbrianLefty]

The hard truth is that the left of the party are so unpopular with the general public that the more they attack Starmer the more his standing will improve with them.

The only Labour leader to gain the party seats in a post-1997 GE was one Jeremy Corbyn.

Or is it some other "hard truth" that you had in mind?

[CumbrianLefty]

The hard truth is that the left of the party are so unpopular with the general public that the more they attack Starmer the more his standing will improve with them.

The only Labour leader to gain the party seats in a post-1997 GE was one Jeremy Corbyn.

Or is it some other "hard truth" that you had in mind?

Popularity is not in fact a fixed value. There is some rather obvious recent evidence suggesting Corbyn was somewhat less popular as of December 2019.

And of course I know this all too well. But simply asserting "nobody likes the Labour left" as some sort of universal immutable rule reminds me of why our mainstream media has basically got nothing right since the 2008 financial crash.

[CumbrianLefty]

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/keir-starmer-rebecca-long-bailey_uk_5ef50f91c5b6acab283efcb2?iuw

Absolutely awful hack, if he thinks something is good the opposite is likely true.

[CumbrianLefty]

Well, part of the problem for some of us is that the very worst people are celebrating over this.

[CumbrianLefty]

I don't disagree, but this is one of those things where only multilateral disarmament will work.

[CumbrianLefty]

I've thought for a few months that we appear to be in the early stages of a divorce between the Labour Party and 'Left Culture'. I suspect both parties will be better off apart, but it is going to be messy.

I think that would be a mistake for both parties. The 'left culture' (hate that term, but I'll go along for now) is closer to achieving systemic change than it has been for 75 years. It needs a party organization to consolidate and propagate itself. Meanwhile, the Labour Party would be worse than useless without the animating force of the 'left culture'. It would sink back into the baleful and despicable Blairism that is, unfortunately, its natural resting place for the time being.

Have to say this is my thinking as well - the thought of the "left movement" falling (back) into the clutches of opportunist demagogic cranks like Galloway and Williamson is depressing enough, the idea that Labour would (again) become the plaything of the likes of Reeves and Phillipson if anything even more so. A rightward turn would be a lot more tolerable if I thought the Labour right had any sort of vision or even grand plan, but they don't - almost without exception they are deeply mediocre managerialists who appear motivated almost solely by the idea that they should "be in charge". To do *what*, exactly? They never tell us. And that is before we get to the reality is that much of Labour's "natural" voting base - not least in that fabled "red wall" - have interaction with these types in their daily life, and for the most part heartily detest them (how else was a Tory party, one led by Boris Johnson no less, able to - so brazenly but also so successfully - pass themselves off as "insurgents"?)

I would certainly be interested to know how the OP thinks this could actually end well for either group.

[CumbrianLefty]

Mass stabbing incident in Glasgow. Suspect shot dead. No information other than spurious rumours.

OMG

If this is terror-related, then that's 2 incidents in as many weeks.

Now seems it may not be (and "only" the perpetrator dead thus far)

[CumbrianLefty]

All true, and Starmer getting healthy ratings is unequivocally good - but at some point they need to translate into clear Labour VI leads.

Praise from people who still won't vote Labour will only get you so far.

[CumbrianLefty]

I would say there has already been a bit of that. But equally, what people like you don't like to admit is that Corbyn's actual *policy* programme was *mostly* popular.

[CumbrianLefty]

I would say there has already been a bit of that. But equally, what people like you don't like to admit is that Corbyn's actual *policy* programme was *mostly* popular.

Many individual elements were, but the whole package wasn't; it was seen as just throwing goodies at the electorate and not credible in the whole.

Ultimately the person and the policy couldn't be divorced.

As a critique of the 2019 manifesto that has *some* force - 2017's, not so much.

[CumbrianLefty]

2017 was because May was useless and the antisemitism thing hadn't fully developed yet.

May's hopelessness is highly overstated save for the fiasco over the "dementia tax" which might have caused some older Tory voters to stay at home - even so she scored only slightly more than 1% less than Johnson did. AS became a real thing in Labour in 2016 (Livingstone et al) and attempts were made to turn it against the party the following year - they largely failed, as did other stratagems, because the Labour campaign then was *actually quite good*.

People who refuse to admit that Corbyn and his camp followers ever did anything wrong are certainly annoying, but those who decline to give any credit for anything in his time aren't much better.

[CumbrianLefty]

Well, the wipeout in Scotland (which made winning a Labour majority so much harder) predated him. As did the rise of UKIP that presaged the referendum result and all that has flowed from that.

But above all, Corbyn was overall a symptom rather than a cause.

[CumbrianLefty]

(a lot more money was spend in 2017 on IRA ads than 2019)

Even so, anecdotal accounts suggest that "Corbyn IRA bad" stuff was heard much more on the fabled doorstep - especially from Labour deserters in "red wall" areas - last year.

[CumbrianLefty]

The bottom line is that "defund the police" is much more of a fringe position here than in the US (and even there, of course, it shouldn't be forgotten that it still has only minority support) And that one of the main campaign themes for Labour in 2017 was police cuts and underfunding - no surprise that this was and is one of the areas where "hardcore" Corbynism has been most critical of his time as leader.

[CumbrianLefty]

It has rarely been more than an empty slogan employed by anti-lockdown ideologues IMO.