Israeli General Election (2nd of March, 2020): Madness

[jaymichaud]

I’m going to carefully say that I think Gantz lost the elections yesterday. JL voter turnout is going to dip and the right wing won’t move now. It will either be a unity government of a 4th run.

No, I think exactly the opposite. I think Bibi and Trump lit a bomb underneath the right wing and Gantz was smart enough to quickly get out of the way before it goes off. I also think it will energize rather than depress Arab turnout.

What do you think Gantz did wrong?

Gantz was in a bit of a pickle here. this was Bibi's show and he was working on it for more than 2 years. he foolishly entered the right wing contest with Likud, but maybe that's wisdom in hindsight.

Arab turnout will go down, now they don't see a difference between them and there's no great urgency in replacing Bibi for the ex-general. and now he also lost their recommendations. also Bibi flanked him from the right, he now can't offer NR or Shas anything to pull them away from the bloc, plus Bibi can pressure YB into a government now under some strategic pretense.

Where did Gantz go wrong? well he (his crew headed by Yoram) working brilliantly tactically, doing a quid for quo with Likud. But Bibi is a man of strategy, he knew he can pull this rabbit out at anytime.
in hindsight letting Hendel and Hauser screw the minority government option ended him, and then moving the discussion into the annexation a week ago was even more foolish.

I think he will be forced into a unity government with YB in as well as some grand national unity government for the annexation and coming Intifada.

Embracing the plan is a step to the left and not right for not only Gantz and not Bibi. Netanyahu has since Bar Ilan used as a campaign centerpiece the idea that only he can prevent a Palestinian state. Now he vocally supports one. Gantz has explicitly refused to endorse the 2 state solution. Now he vocally supports is. You are absolutely correct that the Trump plan is an immoral catastrophe for the Palestnians. But the point is that not only does everyone realize that it will never be actualized but that even if it were it would still be an improvement on the apartheid-like madness that currently exists.

But I actually think it's a real mistake to assume that Arab voters are mainly or even especially fixated on the Palestine question.  The reason that Arab voters sat out the April election was, in part, a belief that tbe Arab parties were more concerned with Palestinians than Arab voters in Israel. Arab voters oppose Netanyahu and the fantatical right not only because the apartheidal treatment of Palestinians, but mainly because Arabs can't build just and hope-filled communities in Israel because they face racism and discrimination. It stinks that Palestinians can't have a state. It stinks even more that THIS state is shrugging at historic gun violence in Arab towns simply because they are Arab towns. It's grossly wrong that Palestinians can't access shipling ports. It's even worse that the nation state law opens up the door to prevent Arabs in Israel fron accessing affordable housing, decent infrastructure, and the keys to economic success.

If I were Gantz I probably would have played this differently. But I certainly don't think that doing the way he did will hurt him. As I said, I think it is far more likely to open up divisions on the right rather than left.

I don’t think this plan is a 2SS because the Palestine envisioned there isn’t really a state. It’s Bibi’s motto “State Minus”.

I think Arab voter turnout who have gone down anyhow, but I think the major issue here is that Gantz supported a plan that might espouse population swap which is racist and offensive to many Arab voters (quite rightly).

Yeah, I didn't realize that Umm al Fahm and other Arab towns in the north would be transfered to the new Palestinian quasi-state under the plan. And now Gantz wants to approve the plan even before election day.

This country...smh.

The Palestinians taking Umm Al Fahm is justified, honestly.

Why don't we ask the residents of Umm Al Fahm before we change their citizenship without consent?

Umm, they call themselves ‘Palestinian’, fly Palestinian flags, lionize Raed Salah, worship the Muslim brotherhood and so on. It’s clear what the answer is.

Have you ever been in there? Honestly. Do you know a single person from there?

Yes, actually.

[Famous Mortimer]

Some Israeli Arab Christians want to remain in Israel because they expect Israel will do more to protect minority rights than a Palestinian state.

Some Israeli Muslims even want to remain in Israel because they expect Israel will provide better social services than a Palestinian state.

Very very few Arab Israelis want to remain in Israel out of a sense of patriotism or loyalty though. Why would they? Even if the Nation-State Law hadn't made it explicit, there's always been the implicit understanding that the state is not for them. To say that they are not loyal to Israel is not an attack on them, it's a value neutral state, it's completely rational for them not to be loyal to Israel.

Comparing how Arab Israelis feel about Israel to how Jewish Americans feel about America is ridiculous. America was not founded on Jewish land, it hasn't hindered the existence of a Jewish state (it's actually done the opposite). Beyond the most surface level, the two situations have almost nothing in common.

Umm Al Fahm should be in Palestine. If a Palestinian state does come into being and Umm Al Fahm isn't part of it, it will only be to appease liberal Jewish Israelis (not Arab Israelis) who dislike the idea of an ethnostate and get warm fuzzies at the though of any non-Jew living in Israel.

 

I don't understand your distinction between Jewish nationalism in America and Palestinian nationalism in Israel. Yes, obviously a traditionally Zionist superpower like America has different political contours than a small ethnostate like Israel. But the only reason I can fathom that you would assert that it's totally legitimate for US Jews to wrap themselves in Israeli flags but not for for Palestinian Israelis to wrap themselves in Palestinian flags is that you like Jewish nationalism much more than you like Palestinian nationalism. The point is that you should be able to wave an Israeli flag and keep your US citizenship. And you should be able to wave your Palestinian flag and keep your Arab citizenship.

Your view of patriotism is also particularly odd. The Arab Israelis demanding Israel abide by its founding principles and constitutional commitments to equality and democracy seem to me far more patriotic than the right wing zealots advocating ethnic cleansing and suppression of non-Jewish minorities. The nation state law is atrocious not because it cements in law a historical "implicit understanding" of Jewish political supremacy but precisely the opposite--that Jewish leaders have always told Arabs that they are equal citizens who's identity is no more or less important in a democratic state like Israel and the nation state law says exactly the opposite.

So celebrating the citizenship and identity of non-Jews in Israel is not just about giving liberals a thrill. It is about fidelity to the values and pluralistic identity of the state itself.  The mythical Jewish monolith you imagine (desire?) to be is obviously not my Israel and more importantly it isn't the real Israel.  It wasn't made to be that, and with over a quarter of the population consisting of non-Jews it isn't that today, either.

Tossing Umm al Fahm to Palestine because its residents are brown Arabs who don't clutch the Israeli flag as dogmatically and absurdly as certain American Jews and Israeli right wingers is every bit as racist and bigoted as it seems.

Lol that’s some WACK false equivalence

Is it bigoted if I said Fermanagh should go to the Republic of Ireland because the majority of people in that county are Catholic, ethnically Irish, Sinn Fein voting Republicans? That’s a legitimate political debate, and actually what the majority want.

The Palestinian flag is a negation of Israeli nationalism. The Israeli flag is not a negation of American nationalism.

[The Mikado]

And your posts are a negation of intelligence, yet we don't call for you to disappear.

Speak for yourself.

[Velasco]

98
Who am I saying should disappear? I'm saying majority Palestinian cities should be in a future Palestinian state.

What state? There is only one state there and it's called Israel. Said state accepts all the Jews living there and abroad, but only a part of the Palestinian locals. There is not going to be a ''future Palestinian state'' worthy of that name. At best the Israelis are only willing to allow a bantustan-like entity, without territorial consistency or economic viability. There are two kind of Palestinians: citizens and non-citizens. It's better to be a discriminated minority in a viable state, even if that state does not recognize your national identity. Who is stupid enough to accept the transfer to a bantustan state? I understand some posters here are racist and don't like the Palestinians, but don t pretend to disguise your racism with that rubbish. There is no ''two state solution'', face it.

[Walmart_shopper]

Some Israeli Arab Christians want to remain in Israel because they expect Israel will do more to protect minority rights than a Palestinian state.

Some Israeli Muslims even want to remain in Israel because they expect Israel will provide better social services than a Palestinian state.

Very very few Arab Israelis want to remain in Israel out of a sense of patriotism or loyalty though. Why would they? Even if the Nation-State Law hadn't made it explicit, there's always been the implicit understanding that the state is not for them. To say that they are not loyal to Israel is not an attack on them, it's a value neutral state, it's completely rational for them not to be loyal to Israel.

Comparing how Arab Israelis feel about Israel to how Jewish Americans feel about America is ridiculous. America was not founded on Jewish land, it hasn't hindered the existence of a Jewish state (it's actually done the opposite). Beyond the most surface level, the two situations have almost nothing in common.

Umm Al Fahm should be in Palestine. If a Palestinian state does come into being and Umm Al Fahm isn't part of it, it will only be to appease liberal Jewish Israelis (not Arab Israelis) who dislike the idea of an ethnostate and get warm fuzzies at the though of any non-Jew living in Israel.

 

I don't understand your distinction between Jewish nationalism in America and Palestinian nationalism in Israel. Yes, obviously a traditionally Zionist superpower like America has different political contours than a small ethnostate like Israel. But the only reason I can fathom that you would assert that it's totally legitimate for US Jews to wrap themselves in Israeli flags but not for for Palestinian Israelis to wrap themselves in Palestinian flags is that you like Jewish nationalism much more than you like Palestinian nationalism. The point is that you should be able to wave an Israeli flag and keep your US citizenship. And you should be able to wave your Palestinian flag and keep your Arab citizenship.

Your view of patriotism is also particularly odd. The Arab Israelis demanding Israel abide by its founding principles and constitutional commitments to equality and democracy seem to me far more patriotic than the right wing zealots advocating ethnic cleansing and suppression of non-Jewish minorities. The nation state law is atrocious not because it cements in law a historical "implicit understanding" of Jewish political supremacy but precisely the opposite--that Jewish leaders have always told Arabs that they are equal citizens who's identity is no more or less important in a democratic state like Israel and the nation state law says exactly the opposite.

So celebrating the citizenship and identity of non-Jews in Israel is not just about giving liberals a thrill. It is about fidelity to the values and pluralistic identity of the state itself.  The mythical Jewish monolith you imagine (desire?) to be is obviously not my Israel and more importantly it isn't the real Israel.  It wasn't made to be that, and with over a quarter of the population consisting of non-Jews it isn't that today, either.

Tossing Umm al Fahm to Palestine because its residents are brown Arabs who don't clutch the Israeli flag as dogmatically and absurdly as certain American Jews and Israeli right wingers is every bit as racist and bigoted as it seems.

Lol that’s some WACK false equivalence

Is it bigoted if I said Fermanagh should go to the Republic of Ireland because the majority of people in that county are Catholic, ethnically Irish, Sinn Fein voting Republicans? Because that’s a legitimate political debate (and actually what the majority want) as opposed to some disgusting statement.

I mean, this "if you love Country X so much why don't you move there" trope is used all over the world. And it's wrong. It's wrong when it is used against Mexican Americans waving Mexican flags on Cinco de Mayo. It's wrong when it's used against Palestinians. The one group we don't use it against is, of course, Jews, despite the fact that Jewish nationalism has a profound impact on, for example, American politics. It is considered a supreme act of anti-Semitic bias to question Jewish loyalty simply because of Jewish attachment to the Jewish state. Jewish nationalism is a legitimate expression of personal and political identity. It is totally possible to love Israel even more than America and literally wrap yourself in the Israeli flag and still be a good American. Thankfully we resist the bigotry of questioning Jewish loyalty. It's absurd that we don't recognize Palestinians in Israel as being allowed to have the same attachment and solidarity with their own homeland without questioning their loyalty.

But the real point is that we aren't even talking about whether the flag-wavers in Umm al Fahm should ho live in Palestine. We are talking about the State of Israel forcibly stripping an entire city of its citizenship simply based on ethnicity and culture to satisfy a peace plan that no Palestinian wants in the first place. Can you not see how egregious that is?

[Walmart_shopper]

Some Israeli Arab Christians want to remain in Israel because they expect Israel will do more to protect minority rights than a Palestinian state.

Some Israeli Muslims even want to remain in Israel because they expect Israel will provide better social services than a Palestinian state.

Very very few Arab Israelis want to remain in Israel out of a sense of patriotism or loyalty though. Why would they? Even if the Nation-State Law hadn't made it explicit, there's always been the implicit understanding that the state is not for them. To say that they are not loyal to Israel is not an attack on them, it's a value neutral state, it's completely rational for them not to be loyal to Israel.

Comparing how Arab Israelis feel about Israel to how Jewish Americans feel about America is ridiculous. America was not founded on Jewish land, it hasn't hindered the existence of a Jewish state (it's actually done the opposite). Beyond the most surface level, the two situations have almost nothing in common.

Umm Al Fahm should be in Palestine. If a Palestinian state does come into being and Umm Al Fahm isn't part of it, it will only be to appease liberal Jewish Israelis (not Arab Israelis) who dislike the idea of an ethnostate and get warm fuzzies at the though of any non-Jew living in Israel.

 

I don't understand your distinction between Jewish nationalism in America and Palestinian nationalism in Israel. Yes, obviously a traditionally Zionist superpower like America has different political contours than a small ethnostate like Israel. But the only reason I can fathom that you would assert that it's totally legitimate for US Jews to wrap themselves in Israeli flags but not for for Palestinian Israelis to wrap themselves in Palestinian flags is that you like Jewish nationalism much more than you like Palestinian nationalism. The point is that you should be able to wave an Israeli flag and keep your US citizenship. And you should be able to wave your Palestinian flag and keep your Arab citizenship.

Your view of patriotism is also particularly odd. The Arab Israelis demanding Israel abide by its founding principles and constitutional commitments to equality and democracy seem to me far more patriotic than the right wing zealots advocating ethnic cleansing and suppression of non-Jewish minorities. The nation state law is atrocious not because it cements in law a historical "implicit understanding" of Jewish political supremacy but precisely the opposite--that Jewish leaders have always told Arabs that they are equal citizens who's identity is no more or less important in a democratic state like Israel and the nation state law says exactly the opposite.

So celebrating the citizenship and identity of non-Jews in Israel is not just about giving liberals a thrill. It is about fidelity to the values and pluralistic identity of the state itself.  The mythical Jewish monolith you imagine (desire?) to be is obviously not my Israel and more importantly it isn't the real Israel.  It wasn't made to be that, and with over a quarter of the population consisting of non-Jews it isn't that today, either.

Tossing Umm al Fahm to Palestine because its residents are brown Arabs who don't clutch the Israeli flag as dogmatically and absurdly as certain American Jews and Israeli right wingers is every bit as racist and bigoted as it seems.

Lol that’s some WACK false equivalence

Is it bigoted if I said Fermanagh should go to the Republic of Ireland because the majority of people in that county are Catholic, ethnically Irish, Sinn Fein voting Republicans? That’s a legitimate political debate, and actually what the majority want.

The Palestinian flag is a negation of Israeli nationalism. The Israeli flag is not a negation of American nationalism.

If there's one thing Palestinians understand really, really well it's negation of national identity and peoplehood.

[Oryxslayer]

Moving away from this discussion for a moment, it seems as if Likud has had a respectable media cycle this last week. They are gaining in the polls, usually pulling from minors. Now, there are a variety of potential reasons for this: Peace Plan juicing the Right wing, a potential rally-around-the-flag after Bibi's sentence, or perhaps just small party infighting within the settler parties. No matter the reason, Likud has gained in this moment.

[jaymichaud]

Moving away from this discussion for a moment, it seems as if Likud has had a respectable media cycle this last week. They are gaining in the polls, usually pulling from minors. Now, there are a variety of potential reasons for this: Peace Plan juicing the Right wing, a potential rally-around-the-flag after Bibi's sentence, or perhaps just small party infighting within the settler parties. No matter the reason, Likud has gained in this moment.

I noticed that too, but B&W seem to be surging to 35-36 seats so it doesn’t particularly matter

[Walmart_shopper]

Moving away from this discussion for a moment, it seems as if Likud has had a respectable media cycle this last week. They are gaining in the polls, usually pulling from minors. Now, there are a variety of potential reasons for this: Peace Plan juicing the Right wing, a potential rally-around-the-flag after Bibi's sentence, or perhaps just small party infighting within the settler parties. No matter the reason, Likud has gained in this moment.

No, to the contrary, this was supposed to be the gamechanging week for the Likud. And polls are in almost total agreement that AT MOST they picked up a single seat. It was, as you say, a relatively good news week for Netanyahu, but the indictment pretty much negated whatever momentum he found and, in any case, the cake is mostly baked in terms of support. I have to imagine that the Likud strategists are in a panic of sorts realizing that the week in which they threw the kitchen sink barely moved the needke at all. There are only a couple mandates out there that will bobble around over the next month. The only real question is, of course, turnout.

I just think people are done with Netanyahu and the only question is how to piece together a government without him. Support for him on the right just isn't strong enough to net a majority.

[Oryxslayer]

Moving away from this discussion for a moment, it seems as if Likud has had a respectable media cycle this last week. They are gaining in the polls, usually pulling from minors. Now, there are a variety of potential reasons for this: Peace Plan juicing the Right wing, a potential rally-around-the-flag after Bibi's sentence, or perhaps just small party infighting within the settler parties. No matter the reason, Likud has gained in this moment.

No, to the contrary, this was supposed to be the gamechanging week for the Likud. And polls are in almost total agreement that AT MOST they picked up a single seat. It was, as you say, a relatively good news week for Netanyahu, but the indictment pretty much negated whatever momentum he found and, in any case, the cake is mostly baked in terms of support. I have to imagine that the Likud strategists are in a panic of sorts realizing that the week in which they threw the kitchen sink barely moved the needke at all. There are only a couple mandates out there that will bobble around over the next month. The only real question is, of course, turnout.

I just think people are done with Netanyahu and the only question is how to piece together a government without him. Support for him on the right just isn't strong enough to net a majority.

Nah, I think Likud got what they wanted, I mean the actually led in one poll after being down for months. I think the problem is, like I said earlier, this is all happening a few weeks to early. Instant emotions will dissipate and we will be back to the earlier equilibrium. Or...a new news cycle will come around that adjusts views towards a different temporary alignment.

[Hnv1]

98
Who am I saying should disappear? I'm saying majority Palestinian cities should be in a future Palestinian state.

What state? There is only one state there and it's called Israel. Said state accepts all the Jews living there and abroad, but only a part of the Palestinian locals. There is not going to be a ''future Palestinian state'' worthy of that name. At best the Israelis are only willing to allow a bantustan-like entity, without territorial consistency or economic viability. There are two kind of Palestinians: citizens and non-citizens. It's better to be a discriminated minority in a viable state, even if that state does not recognize your national identity. Who is stupid enough to accept the transfer to a bantustan state? I understand some posters here are racist and don't like the Palestinians, but don t pretend to disguise your racism with that rubbish. There is no ''two state solution'', face it.

This is actually a very good argument for why an Israeli Arab would rather be a citizen of Israel than a citizen of Palestine.

However, it conflicts with what all the left-wing Israelis here are saying. They're saying the Arabs should remain Israeli because they actually love Israel. You're saying they should remain Israeli so they can extract more resources from the Israeli government

and while that would be a completely logical thing for Arabs to do, it would also be completely logical for Israel Jews not to want to let Arabs do that, so that would explain why they want to get rid of these Arab populated bits of their country.

love Israel? the country isn't your mom to love like that. most (sane) Jews don't love the "State of Israel".

The argument usually follows on several points:
- contrary to what some think, polling among Israeli Arabs show that no more than third at best  identify as Israelis. 70 years of Israeli rule as also altered them different from the Palestinians with many cultural differences
- no one asked the residents what they want, citizenship is an individual right no up to collective bargaining. the PA has no mandate to discuss or agree anything above their heads
- this transfer of citizens has a very problematic constitutional saying, it tells any other Arab resident of Israel that he's merely a citizen contingently
- Lastly, the Arab residents of such towns didn't settle there illegally, they cannot be compared to Jewish settlers in the West Bank as a quid for quo  

[Walmart_shopper]

98
Who am I saying should disappear? I'm saying majority Palestinian cities should be in a future Palestinian state.

What state? There is only one state there and it's called Israel. Said state accepts all the Jews living there and abroad, but only a part of the Palestinian locals. There is not going to be a ''future Palestinian state'' worthy of that name. At best the Israelis are only willing to allow a bantustan-like entity, without territorial consistency or economic viability. There are two kind of Palestinians: citizens and non-citizens. It's better to be a discriminated minority in a viable state, even if that state does not recognize your national identity. Who is stupid enough to accept the transfer to a bantustan state? I understand some posters here are racist and don't like the Palestinians, but don t pretend to disguise your racism with that rubbish. There is no ''two state solution'', face it.

This is actually a very good argument for why an Israeli Arab would rather be a citizen of Israel than a citizen of Palestine.

However, it conflicts with what all the left-wing Israelis here are saying. They're saying the Arabs should remain Israeli because they actually love Israel. You're saying they should remain Israeli so they can extract more resources from the Israeli government

and while that would be a completely logical thing for Arabs to do, it would also be completely logical for Israel Jews not to want to let Arabs do that, so that would explain why they want to get rid of these Arab populated bits of their country.

love Israel? the country isn't your mom to love like that. most (sane) Jews don't love the "State of Israel".

The argument usually follows on several points:
- contrary to what some think, polling among Israeli Arabs show that no more than third at best  identify as Israelis. 70 years of Israeli rule as also altered them different from the Palestinians with many cultural differences
- no one asked the residents what they want, citizenship is an individual right no up to collective bargaining. the PA has no mandate to discuss or agree anything above their heads
- this transfer of citizens has a very problematic constitutional saying, it tells any other Arab resident of Israel that he's merely a citizen contingently
- Lastly, the Arab residents of such towns did settle there illegally, they cannot be compared to Jewish settlers in the West Bank as a quid for quo 

It's a really just a variant of the comical "Murica: love it er leave it" meme. The idea that only unquestioning fealty to your country's political  leadership is worthy of citizenship is among the most terrifying and dangerous ever.

[jaymichaud]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/arab-israelis-protest-us-peace-plan-proposal-to-include-their-towns-in-palestine

Hmm

[Intell]

To the surprise of literally no-one ever. What's hilarious is that they protest with a Palestinian flag, but it's their identity, so it's understandable. That's why you need two states under full 67' borders (right to return compromised) or a one state solution.

[jaymichaud]

New Maagar poll:

34 [33] Blue & White (Gantz)
31 [32] Likud (Netanyahu)
14 [13] The Joint List – Hadash-Taal-Raam-Balad (Odeh)
09 [11] Labor-Gesher-Meretz (A.Peretz)
09 [09] Shas (Deri)
09 [07] Yamina (Bennett)
07 [08] Yisrael Beitenu (Lieberman)
07 [07] United Torah Judaism (Litzman)

So after all that song and dance Likud are still predicted to lose seats? That’s rich if so.

[Velasco]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/arab-israelis-protest-us-peace-plan-proposal-to-include-their-towns-in-palestine

Hmm

A mayor of one of the Triangle villages says the following:

  We are here on our land and no one will decide how we will live. Trump is out of control. We are for peace. But a just peace. We will continue to strive for peace 

Another mayor:

  I am here and am demanding my rights as a citizen. This plan equates me to a settler who came to land that does not belong to me. 

Neither Trump, Netanyahu, Kushner, Friedman, Lieberman nor a random Atlas poster have the right to impose them an Apartheid plan. These mayors and the people living in the Triangle are massive Freedom Fighters. I hope they endure

[jaymichaud]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/arab-israelis-protest-us-peace-plan-proposal-to-include-their-towns-in-palestine

Hmm

A mayor of one of the Triangle villages says the following:

  We are here on our land and no one will decide how we will live. Trump is out of control. We are for peace. But a just peace. We will continue to strive for peace 

Another mayor:

  I am here and am demanding my rights as a citizen. This plan equates me to a settler who came to land that does not belong to me. 

Neither Trump, Netanyahu, Kushner, Friedman, Lieberman nor a random Atlas poster have the right to impose them an Apartheid plan. These mayors and the people living in the Triangle are massive Freedom Fighters. I hope they endure

Get a grip.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Hey folks, if Mortimer is still spamming this thread with his tripe, can you please report them? I can't because I have him on ignore (the new "hard" ignore where the posts are completely invisible) so I unfortunately can't help here, but this thread deserves better than his racist bullsh*t.

[Velasco]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/arab-israelis-protest-us-peace-plan-proposal-to-include-their-towns-in-palestine

Hmm

A mayor of one of the Triangle villages says the following:

  We are here on our land and no one will decide how we will live. Trump is out of control. We are for peace. But a just peace. We will continue to strive for peace 

Another mayor:

  I am here and am demanding my rights as a citizen. This plan equates me to a settler who came to land that does not belong to me. 

Neither Trump, Netanyahu, Kushner, Friedman, Lieberman nor a random Atlas poster have the right to impose them an Apartheid plan. These mayors and the people living in the Triangle are massive Freedom Fighters. I hope they endure

Get a grip.

Am I wrong assuming that you side with Mortimer and the plan?

[Walmart_shopper]

New Maagar poll:

34 [33] Blue & White (Gantz)
31 [32] Likud (Netanyahu)
14 [13] The Joint List – Hadash-Taal-Raam-Balad (Odeh)
09 [11] Labor-Gesher-Meretz (A.Peretz)
09 [09] Shas (Deri)
09 [07] Yamina (Bennett)
07 [08] Yisrael Beitenu (Lieberman)
07 [07] United Torah Judaism (Litzman)

So after all that song and dance Likud are still predicted to lose seats? That’s rich if so.

As I said, the peace plan rollout ended up worse for Netanyahu than for Gantz. Gantz's pandering to the right was craven, of course, but it helped insulate him from the Trump bomb going off under the right wing. It's so much better politically for Netanyahu to stand up and declare that he will never allow a Palestinian state than it is for him to have to embrace a plan that creates a (albeit emaciated) Palestinian state. And now that so-called "allies" in the Arab world and even the US are pumping the brakes on Israel's implementation of the deal, now everyone can see that the emperor really has no clothes.

Gantz's mistake was trying to get in front of the story instead of just letting the disaster unfold on Netanyahu. That's what political novices do, though. They freak out about any given news cycle and flail rather than just letting things straighten out and staying on a winning message. Gantz only needed to just thank Trump for his support and offer to consider the plan in depth once his government is seated. Now he wears the farce of a century around his neck and he's alienated the Joint List. The more time we spend on a Palestinian state is the less time we spend talking about Defendant Netanyahu's march to prison, which is how Gantz will win the election.

As hnv said, Gantz's political advisors appear to be lost out in the Negev right now. Thankfully the Netanyahu is in absolute political disarray right now and he's bringing the right wing down with him.

[jaymichaud]

New Maagar poll:

34 [33] Blue & White (Gantz)
31 [32] Likud (Netanyahu)
14 [13] The Joint List – Hadash-Taal-Raam-Balad (Odeh)
09 [11] Labor-Gesher-Meretz (A.Peretz)
09 [09] Shas (Deri)
09 [07] Yamina (Bennett)
07 [08] Yisrael Beitenu (Lieberman)
07 [07] United Torah Judaism (Litzman)

So after all that song and dance Likud are still predicted to lose seats? That’s rich if so.

As I said, the peace plan rollout ended up worse for Netanyahu than for Gantz. Gantz's pandering to the right was craven, of course, but it helped insulate him from the Trump bomb going off under the right wing. It's so much better politically for Netanyahu to stand up and declare that he will never allow a Palestinian state than it is for him to have to embrace a plan that creates a (albeit emaciated) Palestinian state. And now that so-called "allies" in the Arab world and even the US are pumping the brakes on Israel's implementation of the deal, now everyone can see that the emperor really has no clothes.

Gantz's mistake was trying to get in front of the story instead of just letting the disaster unfold on Netanyahu. That's what political novices do, though. They freak out about any given news cycle and flail rather than just letting things straighten out and staying on a winning message. Gantz only needed to just thank Trump for his support and offer to consider the plan in depth once his government is seated. Now he wears the farce of a century around his neck and he's alienated the Joint List. The more time we spend on a Palestinian state is the less time we spend talking about Defendant Netanyahu's march to prison, which is how Gantz will win the election.

As hnv said, Gantz's political advisors appear to be lost out in the Negev right now. Thankfully the Netanyahu is in absolute political disarray right now and he's bringing the right wing down with him.

So do you think Netivot, Ofakim, Beersheva etc. will distance themselves from Likud, especially after the plan to expand Gaza?

[Walmart_shopper]

New Maagar poll:

34 [33] Blue & White (Gantz)
31 [32] Likud (Netanyahu)
14 [13] The Joint List – Hadash-Taal-Raam-Balad (Odeh)
09 [11] Labor-Gesher-Meretz (A.Peretz)
09 [09] Shas (Deri)
09 [07] Yamina (Bennett)
07 [08] Yisrael Beitenu (Lieberman)
07 [07] United Torah Judaism (Litzman)

So after all that song and dance Likud are still predicted to lose seats? That’s rich if so.

As I said, the peace plan rollout ended up worse for Netanyahu than for Gantz. Gantz's pandering to the right was craven, of course, but it helped insulate him from the Trump bomb going off under the right wing. It's so much better politically for Netanyahu to stand up and declare that he will never allow a Palestinian state than it is for him to have to embrace a plan that creates a (albeit emaciated) Palestinian state. And now that so-called "allies" in the Arab world and even the US are pumping the brakes on Israel's implementation of the deal, now everyone can see that the emperor really has no clothes.

Gantz's mistake was trying to get in front of the story instead of just letting the disaster unfold on Netanyahu. That's what political novices do, though. They freak out about any given news cycle and flail rather than just letting things straighten out and staying on a winning message. Gantz only needed to just thank Trump for his support and offer to consider the plan in depth once his government is seated. Now he wears the farce of a century around his neck and he's alienated the Joint List. The more time we spend on a Palestinian state is the less time we spend talking about Defendant Netanyahu's march to prison, which is how Gantz will win the election.

As hnv said, Gantz's political advisors appear to be lost out in the Negev right now. Thankfully the Netanyahu is in absolute political disarray right now and he's bringing the right wing down with him.

So do you think Netivot, Ofakim, Beersheva etc. will distance themselves from Likud, especially after the plan to expand Gaza?

It's a good question. Everyone believes that Bibi has coddled Hamas and has effectively shrugged at the missiles constantly launched from Gaza, and yet Sderot and other communities won't budge from the Likud. So I doubt it matters.

But, honestly, I just don't think most people are taking the Trump deal seriously enough for it to make a rwal electoral difference. The Palestinians would never accept a nonsense proposal like that and so the deal comes down to little more than US diplomatic cover for annexation and effective apartheid. And such a unilateral move is virtually impossible even with US cover, so at the end of the day it just amounts to a bunch of hot air designed to help Netanyahu. But the right can just do nothing and get backdoor annexation without the possibility of a Palestinian state and the Palestinians can just wait until the occupation self- implodes and a binational state becomes a reality. Why would either accept the deal? The Trump plan isn't really good for anyone but Bibi, and as we see it isn't even good for him. Thus everyone shrugs and the electoral needle hardly moves at all (or even backfires on Neranyahu).

[Oryxslayer]

https://twitter.com/mcpli/status/1226940217719959553

Oops.

[jaymichaud]

https://twitter.com/mcpli/status/1226940217719959553

Oops.

People should, like, really call it a day with those election apps.

[Hnv1]

https://twitter.com/mcpli/status/1226940217719959553

Oops.

I don’t see a big deal, every party running no matter how small can get those figures. Part for divorced men running away from court documents there’s nothing in the data that really breaches privacy