🇳🇱 Politics and Elections in the Netherlands: General Election (Nov 22) (user search)
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Author Topic: 🇳🇱 Politics and Elections in the Netherlands: General Election (Nov 22)  (Read 64684 times)
mileslunn
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« on: July 09, 2023, 02:36:24 AM »

With parties so divided how likely is it that there will be an actual government or will it be like Israel where have multiple elections before resolving it?  Likewise interested in how long it will likely take to form government?  I am guessing if election is in November it will take until at least spring of 2024 and possibly longer.  Does Netherlands have a time limit before they must go to a new election or is there any chance of breaking the record Belgium set at 583 days?
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mileslunn
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« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2023, 03:33:14 AM »

With it being so fragmented, what type of coalitions could potentially emerge.  Doesn't look like either left, centrist, centre-right or right wing populist have anywhere near a majority so seems like would be quite awkward.  What are the possible coalitions?
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mileslunn
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« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2023, 04:53:15 PM »

Netherlands has an image as a fairly progressive party yet it seems pretty much every election, more vote for parties on the right than left so why is that?  UK, Australia, and US generally perceived as more conservative yet plenty of times where more vote for parties on left than right in those three.  True Democrats might have some who would be on left in Netherlands, but Labor Australia and UK Labour would definitely be on left even in Netherlands while Liberal Democrats in UK are sort of akin to D66 so borderline.
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mileslunn
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« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2023, 04:29:47 PM »

Why is right wing populists doing so well throughout Europe as already in power in Italy, leading in Austria, around 20% in Finland, Sweden, and Germany, rising in Spain & Portugal.  UK & Ireland seem only two where weak although in UK I am guessing disaster of Brexit probably big reason.  My understanding is elsewhere, right wing populists don't call for leaving EU so can at least avoid that risk.
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mileslunn
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« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2023, 04:37:34 PM »

Agreed high inflation concern, but shouldn't that help left in countries where centre-right in power as they are for more social programs yet it seems other than maybe Ireland now that type of policy not selling (I leave UK out as Labour then like Blair so fairly centrist).  I kind of wonder why parties proposing Bernie Sanders type solutions doing so horrible as I would think taxing rich more for more social programs would have some appeal with high inflation.

As for immigration, my understanding is levels are generally lower than past and its been a longstanding issue so if that is main reason how come right wing populists only doing well recently?
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mileslunn
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« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2023, 05:04:56 PM »

I get that PVV plays the xenophobia card and make rightwing populist promises about stopping asylum seekers etc... but what do they offer when it comes to inflation? Do they promise to wave a magic wand and make prices drop?

That is my question but seems in many countries with things bad, people for whatever reason like to go after those weaker than them not stronger thus why right wing populists succeeding and left failing.  A lot of it is emotional not well thought out.
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mileslunn
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« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2023, 05:10:23 PM »

Question for those who know more about Dutch politics, but image in English speaking world is Netherlands is a fairly progressive country yet seems in almost every election, far more vote for right leaning parties than left leaning even though right wing quite diverse.  What is reason for that and is Netherlands really that progressive or is that more an image some have from just visiting Amsterdam which is quite progressive?

I get cross country comparisons bad idea but seems right in Netherlands gets more than right does in Australia, Canada, UK & US even though US has image of being a fairly right leaning country while other three mixed but generally seen by outsiders as more conservative than Netherlands.  So is image of country false, or is right different than Anglosphere thus bad comparison?
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mileslunn
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« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2023, 05:11:33 PM »

I get that PVV plays the xenophobia card and make rightwing populist promises about stopping asylum seekers etc... but what do they offer when it comes to inflation? Do they promise to wave a magic wand and make prices drop?

That is my question but seems in many countries with things bad, people for whatever reason like to go after those weaker than them not stronger thus why right wing populists succeeding and left failing.  A lot of it is emotional not well thought out.

If you don't throw money to voters you are just left with a social agenda.

So then how come we aren't seeing Bernie Sanders type parties going anywhere in Europe?  While that is not my type of politics, at least that style of populism I understand more than right wing type.
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mileslunn
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« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2023, 05:30:16 PM »

I get that PVV plays the xenophobia card and make rightwing populist promises about stopping asylum seekers etc... but what do they offer when it comes to inflation? Do they promise to wave a magic wand and make prices drop?

That is my question but seems in many countries with things bad, people for whatever reason like to go after those weaker than them not stronger thus why right wing populists succeeding and left failing.  A lot of it is emotional not well thought out.

If you don't throw money to voters you are just left with a social agenda.

So then how come we aren't seeing Bernie Sanders type parties going anywhere in Europe?  While that is not my type of politics, at least that style of populism I understand more than right wing type.

Because what Bernie Sanders advocate for in the USA is the status quo in Europe.

Is it?  I mean yes they have larger social safety net but on taxes he was far to left of any European politician.  Wanted top tax rate of 70% which no European country has.  I believe Netherlands is 49.5% which is higher than most of US although slightly below California (50.3%) and highest any party proposed pushing it up to was 60%.  Also for a wealth tax and Netherlands I don't believe has one (only 3 European countries I believe do).  Only reason perhaps might not work is EU has free mobility of labour so risk of rich fleeing to a neighbouring country much higher than in US where only way to avoid tax is renounce US citizenship.  But not sure average voter knows this as most go more on vibes so so blaming rich fat cats and we will tax them to help those struggling I would think would appeal to some even if simplistic and may do more harm than good.  Canada like Europe has much stronger social safety net and while less radical than Sanders, Trudeau won in big part on taxing rich more to help middle class even if tax hikes on rich fairly modest.

In fact on taxation, I believe Europe in general is much less progressive than US as have high VATs and high rates kick in at relatively low levels.  US has more progressive tax system than Europe but lower at all levels
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mileslunn
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« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2023, 10:09:29 PM »


Definitely shows strong tilt to right in Netherlands.  I mean contrary to stereotype, almost every election more vote for parties on right than left, but only recently has it been this lopsided.  Usually left gets in mid to high 30s, not low to mid 20s while right tends to get around 50% give or take a few points and rest centrist.
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mileslunn
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« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2023, 01:25:22 AM »

Amsterdam:

28.8% GL-PvdA (+11.2)
10.2% VVD (-2.8 )
  8.5% D66 (-14.2)
  8.2% PVV (+3.1)
  6.2% DENK (-0.4)
  5.6% NSC (new)
  4.0% PVdD (-3.0)
  3.4% Volt (-2.5)
  2.7% SP (-2.2)
  2.2% FvD (-0.5)

Those who speak of a leftish Netherlandish stereotype: I believe this is what you have in mind.  (To many, Amsterdam might as well = the whole country.)

Absolutely and only 5% of Dutch live in Amsterdam.  While very small country area wise and very high population density, population is actually fairly evenly spread out.  Its total opposite of Australia and Canada where heavily concentrated in few cities and even quite different than US where population quite spread out in terms of no one city dominates, but on individual state level and most states larger area than Netherlands, usually largest metro area is at least 1/3 of state population and in some states over half or if less you have two or three big metro areas of similar size that dominate.

Still part of stereotype was until a decade ago, it was closest place to legalizing marijuana as while not legal like in Canada and multiple US states, you do have marijuana cafes and if under a certain amount tolerated.  Also first country to legalize gay marriage too.  So I think on certain issues it is quite liberal, but on many others is not.  I mean its not your San Francisco of Europe even if on a few select issues is San Francisco like.  Also on prostitution fairly liberal too and same with Euthanasia.  It likewise has a rather high number of safe injection sites and I believe only recently has Canada eclipsed it (under Trudeau who is very much your stereotype of a strong progressive and social liberal).

But on immigration which is main issue Wilders won on, Netherlands like much of Europe is quite conservative, probably even more conservative than US.  And on economics Netherlands fairly pro free market too.  Maybe not as much as US is and even slightly less so than UK, but way more so than say France or Italy.  While most secular today, generally Protestant countries in Europe tend to be more pro free market while Catholic more statist due to historical views of churches and that has lasted even as religion become less influential. 
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mileslunn
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« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2023, 01:27:19 AM »

I've gotta say, coming days after Argentina this has definitely been a rough few weeks for those of us on the Left. Although perhaps not entirely unforeseeable.

Next major elections seem to be Taiwan and Finland next January.

Its been tough for left in general in past year.  Spain only good news in past year and even then was a very sketchy win.  UK is really only good news for left now and that is more due to fatigue of current government and fewer choices so if you want to get rid of Tories, Labour there is your only option whereas in others you have multiple options so can switch from one right wing to another. 
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mileslunn
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« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2023, 01:32:30 PM »

It seems public prefers Wilders in charge.  I don't think will end well, but I guess maybe have to give it a try.  I have been puzzled why big shift right as left hasn't been in power in Netherlands since 2001 and last time even junior partner was prior to 2017 so if unhappy with status quo seems weird to go further right.  Only thing is this seems a global trend to right which I don't really get even though with few exceptions like UK & Ireland seems happening almost everywhere.
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mileslunn
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« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2023, 04:47:35 PM »

A left-wing party that wants to do well needs to get tough on immigration and get rid of those types (the SP had the right idea here but didn't do this properly: they didn't go all the way to make it credible and therefore lost everyone).

Come on, the Dutch electoral system allows you to win seats if you can exploit an issue that even 2% of voters care about. Do you seriously not think that if every single current left-of-centre party got ‘tough’ on immigration, a new pro-immigration left-liberal party would spring up that would win a lot of seats by utterly cannibalising the current GL-PvdA etc. vote?
That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that if the PvdA had done the same thing as the Danish Social Democrats did but in a Dutch way, they would be very successful. Undoubtedly D66 and GroenLinks would be big and very pro-immigration and attacking the PvdA relentlessly. But the PvdA could occupy the center ground in politics. NSC would be smaller, the VVD would be smaller, the PVV would have about a third of its current vote, and the 'broad left' as a whole would be able to be competitive to the point where a majority could be in sight. It's not the economic policies that make so many people distrust the left. It's really mostly immigration, and all sorts of identity and security issues tied to it. The climate issue has made things more complicated too, but that one should be manageable for a party not completely out of touch with the median voter.

I get impression left in Netherlands trying to follow Anglosphere left which I don't think works there.  US is a lot more polarized and large metro areas make up a much larger share of population in US than Netherlands while rural areas tend to be truly rural, not a town or village within a stones throw of a city so they live in two different worlds speak two different languages thus both have very strong base locked up and fight over small number of votes.

There is also Canada where Trudeau is very much like Dutch left but Canada in a lot of ways is very much an anomaly in Western world so its a country you can run on a progressive elitist platform and win although even then if current polls are remotely accurate may have limits. 

It seems right in Netherlands by contrast is quite distinct from right in Anglosphere as I do wonder if right was like British Tories, GOP, Canadian Tories or Australian L/NP if they would have same level of success?  Mind you also in those you have many factions under one roof whereas in Netherlands each faction has own party.
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mileslunn
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« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2023, 05:36:27 PM »

If I were the PVDA-GL, I'd shut down any ideas of being in a broad government and instead do some real deep autopsy of what the hell went wrong. Going into government seems like a surefire way to collapse even more for them at this point. The people voted for PVV, and they'll have to deal with that. Now they need to find out *why*.

Not sure how you draw that conclusion - GL/PVDA got about what polls projected and about as much as they could have expected. PVV did better because VVD and other rightwing parties did a lot worse. It seems to me that if you can grab the PM chair it makes a huge difference. In the past the PvdA was a huge loser after an election where they had almost as many seats as VVD but because VVD was bigger they got the PM and that meant PvdA suffered the usual fate of any party perceived as a "junior" coalition partner. There is no substitute for being in power.

I really not get the logic that some people spout that boils down to "its bad to win power because you may make unpopular decisions and then lose power in a subsequent election". If you are not willing to take the risk of being in government then what are you doing running in elections at all? 

It depends on how economy goes.  SPD in Germany did bad when junior partner but when finally got lucky break and won in 2021 economy went southward largely due to Ukraine war and higher inflation and now SPD is on track for worst showing ever.  So being in government is double edge sword.  If economy improves, then yeah should help them.  If economy does badly could take them from already weak position to even weaker.  Lets remember while combined right has always beat combined left in Dutch politics, gap is usually much smaller than it is now.

I do think though Danish and Portuguese social democrats are best models.  Former takes tough line on immigration which seems to be an issue really hurting left while latter focused more on pocket book issues.  In North America, left gets a lot of its support from upper middle class urban types and that cohort is much weaker in Europe as well as many still vote centre-right, haven't swung left like in North America.  Left in Europe can only win by regaining its working class support, substituting university educated upper middle class urban types may work in Anglosphere but I don't see it as way forward for European left.

Focusing on climate change, being socially progressive, open on immigration is popular with upper middle class not working class and it feels like left in Netherlands tried to be like North American left ignoring cultural differences while right had some commonalties but also some big differences.  Wilders is big supporter of a large welfare state which right in North America are against.
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mileslunn
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« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2023, 05:38:04 PM »

GL/PVDA have the most to gain from a grand coalition *if* they lead it. Cos they get to be in power and therefore to do things, but it’d draw support from VVD to PVV & away from NSC (probably all over the spectrum) so I’m not sure why the right/centre would agree.

Would it though.  In neighbouring Germany, SPD is at lowest point ever and in government so I almost feel like had CDU/CSU won in 2021, SPD would be in much better shape than they are.  Yes in Spain and Portugal by getting into government helped them but Germany is opposite so it comes down to economy and whether it improves thus benefit or worsens thus fall further.
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mileslunn
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« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2023, 05:41:31 PM »

GL/PVDA have the most to gain from a grand coalition *if* they lead it. Cos they get to be in power and therefore to do things, but it’d draw support from VVD to PVV & away from NSC (probably all over the spectrum) so I’m not sure why the right/centre would agree.

I guess that depends on whether you think PVV has reached its ceiling or not. 37 seats is close to getting the votes of everyone who would ever even consider voting for them

Is it though.  For a long time high teens was seen as ceiling for National Front in France but nowadays getting over 40% or even 50% is no longer seen as far fetched.  Chega in Portugal, AfD in Germany are polling at levels that were unthinkable not long ago.  Off course maybe best solution is left form government and combine left of centre economics with tough on immigration.  In Denmark they have done that and far right has crashed.  Once used to be one of strongest in Europe, now one of weakest.  

Note I am personally pro immigration myself, but then again I am Canadian not European and watching European from outside, I think left has no choice but to take harder line on immigration if want to succeed.  I think in countries built on immigration (Australia, Canada, NZ, and US) much different mentality than countries not built on it.
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mileslunn
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« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2023, 05:45:15 PM »

GL/PVDA have the most to gain from a grand coalition *if* they lead it. Cos they get to be in power and therefore to do things, but it’d draw support from VVD to PVV & away from NSC (probably all over the spectrum) so I’m not sure why the right/centre would agree.

Would it though.  In neighbouring Germany, SPD is at lowest point ever and in government so I almost feel like had CDU/CSU won in 2021, SPD would be in much better shape than they are.  Yes in Spain and Portugal by getting into government helped them but Germany is opposite so it comes down to economy and whether it improves thus benefit or worsens thus fall further.

Being in power is always better than not being in power if you have any confidence in your own ideas or ability.

Is it though.  Portugal and Spain suggest yes as in both cases party came in second and got in from support of smaller parties, but next election won outright (yes fallen since due to fatigue of government and length in office) so if like those two then yes could work in favour.  But as I mention Germany is exact opposite.  I am pretty sure if SPD in Germany weren't in government, they would be in far better shape than currently are.
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mileslunn
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« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2023, 05:50:52 PM »

GL/PVDA have the most to gain from a grand coalition *if* they lead it. Cos they get to be in power and therefore to do things, but it’d draw support from VVD to PVV & away from NSC (probably all over the spectrum) so I’m not sure why the right/centre would agree.

Would it though.  In neighbouring Germany, SPD is at lowest point ever and in government so I almost feel like had CDU/CSU won in 2021, SPD would be in much better shape than they are.  Yes in Spain and Portugal by getting into government helped them but Germany is opposite so it comes down to economy and whether it improves thus benefit or worsens thus fall further.

Being in power is always better than not being in power if you have any confidence in your own ideas or ability.

Is it though.  Portugal and Spain suggest yes as in both cases party came in second and got in from support of smaller parties, but next election won outright (yes fallen since due to fatigue of government and length in office) so if like those two then yes could work in favour.  But as I mention Germany is exact opposite.  I am pretty sure if SPD in Germany weren't in government, they would be in far better shape than currently are.

Anyone who’d rather be a popular opposition than an unpopular government should not (and in all likelihood would not) ever get close to any kind of electoral prominence.

Sometimes governments become popular due to circumstances beyond their control.  Thanks to Ukraine war and Germany depending on Russian natural gas, it was a poisoned chalice so whomever was in government was going to take a big hit.  Agree if no external shock better to be in government but get an external shock people will blame you like doing in Germany.
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mileslunn
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« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2023, 08:56:00 PM »

I'm pretty sure any government with Wilders and Omtzigt will last two years at most anyway so the left should use that time to be the government's toughest critics.
Agreed. This is not a good time to go into government and with these results it’s a poisoned chalice for anyone forming government. Best for them to lick their wounds and try and reach out to voters they’ve lost. Maybe focus more on cost of living and the consequences of climate change (especially the former) to try and get back some of their old voters who went PVV this time? Idk, I’m not Dutch so I’m not exactly a campaign strategist there but that’s just my (dumb American) take

Yeah left should make pocket book issues central.  On immigration bring in a points system so only high skilled non-EU migrants who know Dutch or learn within certain period (get deported if don't) get to come.  Make argument low wage immigration hurts working class most by driving down wages.  On climate change focus on public transit not taxes and regulations as Netherlands is super dense so no reason couldn't have a nation wide public transit system so people drive less.  I think Danish left under Frederiksen is model left in Europe needs to take long term even though being so badly damaged in Netherlands will take a few election cycles before succeeding. 

Many point to Australia and Canada as examples of high immigration countries with no backlash, but both have points system and immigrants are mostly high skilled.  If low skilled it is very difficult to get into either country.  High skilled assimilate better, rarely commit crimes, and don't drive down wages of lower paid workers. 
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mileslunn
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« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2023, 11:19:21 PM »

I'm pretty sure any government with Wilders and Omtzigt will last two years at most anyway so the left should use that time to be the government's toughest critics.
Agreed. This is not a good time to go into government and with these results it’s a poisoned chalice for anyone forming government. Best for them to lick their wounds and try and reach out to voters they’ve lost. Maybe focus more on cost of living and the consequences of climate change (especially the former) to try and get back some of their old voters who went PVV this time? Idk, I’m not Dutch so I’m not exactly a campaign strategist there but that’s just my (dumb American) take

Yeah left should make pocket book issues central.  On immigration bring in a points system so only high skilled non-EU migrants who know Dutch or learn within certain period (get deported if don't) get to come.  Make argument low wage immigration hurts working class most by driving down wages.  On climate change focus on public transit not taxes and regulations as Netherlands is super dense so no reason couldn't have a nation wide public transit system so people drive less.  I think Danish left under Frederiksen is model left in Europe needs to take long term even though being so badly damaged in Netherlands will take a few election cycles before succeeding. 

Many point to Australia and Canada as examples of high immigration countries with no backlash, but both have points system and immigrants are mostly high skilled.  If low skilled it is very difficult to get into either country.  High skilled assimilate better, rarely commit crimes, and don't drive down wages of lower paid workers. 

This sounds good in theory but does not account for the fact that the real problem is not low-skilled labor migration but irregular migration (refugees and asylum seekers). I do not see how a point-based system would help here.


Netherlands though unlike say Italy, Greece or Spain has advantage of not sharing a border or being close to any developing country sending refugees.  To get to Netherlands have to pass through multiple EU member states so seems solution here is for EU member states that border problematic areas to put more resources into securing the border.  Other solution I guess is scrap Scheghen agreeement and re-establish border controls but that would likely make inflation worse as many supply chains work on just in time delivery so would have to make big changes to account for border delays. 

Not sure if allowed but could like US does within 100 miles of Mexican border establish random immigration checkpoints as I know France has random customs checks on autoroutes near borders.  Other option is require all landlords to check ID and confirm person is legally in country as UK did this a decade ago and make it a crime to rent or sell to anyone who illegally in country.  Hotels already are required to check passport of all non-EU nationals and ensure they have not overstayed their visa and report ones who have. 
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mileslunn
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« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2023, 03:29:35 AM »

I'm pretty sure any government with Wilders and Omtzigt will last two years at most anyway so the left should use that time to be the government's toughest critics.
Agreed. This is not a good time to go into government and with these results it’s a poisoned chalice for anyone forming government. Best for them to lick their wounds and try and reach out to voters they’ve lost. Maybe focus more on cost of living and the consequences of climate change (especially the former) to try and get back some of their old voters who went PVV this time? Idk, I’m not Dutch so I’m not exactly a campaign strategist there but that’s just my (dumb American) take

Yeah left should make pocket book issues central.  On immigration bring in a points system so only high skilled non-EU migrants who know Dutch or learn within certain period (get deported if don't) get to come.  Make argument low wage immigration hurts working class most by driving down wages.  On climate change focus on public transit not taxes and regulations as Netherlands is super dense so no reason couldn't have a nation wide public transit system so people drive less.  I think Danish left under Frederiksen is model left in Europe needs to take long term even though being so badly damaged in Netherlands will take a few election cycles before succeeding.  

Many point to Australia and Canada as examples of high immigration countries with no backlash, but both have points system and immigrants are mostly high skilled.  If low skilled it is very difficult to get into either country.  High skilled assimilate better, rarely commit crimes, and don't drive down wages of lower paid workers.  

This sounds good in theory but does not account for the fact that the real problem is not low-skilled labor migration but irregular migration (refugees and asylum seekers). I do not see how a point-based system would help here.


Did you follow the debates in the Netherlands? The problem is migration full stop now, not just whether they are irregular or not. International students (many of them Germans like you) are even being demonized now even though higher education is technically an export and the international students bring in money by spend on Dutch goods and services. The main problem in the Netherlands is raw numbers and a housing crisis. Its in many ways a victim of its own success. A points based system would at least get the workforce the Netherlands needs to increase capacity in places like health and construction over say logistics and higher education. Yesilgoz was actually the one who put it best when she said its also unfair on the international student or new EU worker... Finding a place to rent in the Netherlands is obscene these days.

What frustrates me is that Wilders and his ilk would have no issue inviting the entire Afrikaner population or crackpot US evangelicals in this context. Secular Dutch parties should propose to build over the Bible belt, make the Dutch Bible Belt a giant manhattan strip of skyscrapers with headshops and kebabs on every corner. If they want to do cosplay Calvinism America has plenty of space.

(and Obviously a points based system is illegal under EU law but then this is also an EU problem, and the EU could provide the solution by not running a political economy that makes loads of people congregate in the Blue Banana  and instead limits internal migration to fit supply with demand)

Doesn't Netherlands heavily restrict areas you can build homes on?  My understanding is thanks to high population density and desire to produce enough food to feed population much of areas not built up is reserved exclusively for agriculture and parks and cannot be developed.  Since EU has CAP what matters is does EU produce enough food to feeds its population not does anyone member within it and answer is emphatically yes.  So I would think allowing farmland to be turned into new subdivisions could help on housing costs.  I mean Netherlands has roughly the population density of New Jersey yet much of New Jersey is suburban sprawl not farmland thus more affordable. 

And as for points system, that is nuts.  I mean Canada which is often held up as beacon of tolerance and multiculturalism uses a points system.  As long as EU citizens exempt from points system and only applied to non-EU citizens not sure why would be a problem.  I thought EU law on immigration was only free mobility of EU citizens and cannot be racist but otherwise member states free to set whatever ones they wish for non-EU migrants.  Australia has free mobility of labour with New Zealand yet uses a points system and simply exempts NZ citizens from it.
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mileslunn
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« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2023, 03:45:50 AM »

The points system is nuts, but so is the idea that we could have freedom of movement to the scale of the United States. Europe is not the United States. There are many reasons why labour market mobility in the US is easier to implement than the EU. In the end freedom of movement turned out to be a trojan horse for the centre-left in Europe. And some people legit think Ukraine should be fastlined into the EU 4 freedoms!!! You need strong fiscal measures to counterbalance peverse effects, and China-style levels of social engineering, neither of which the EU has. But anyway we are veering off topic, you are right to question building policies in the Netherlands. I dont know much about them.

Not disagreeing on that but fact is only way to end free mobility of labour is to leave EU outright and have a tough time believing most Dutch voters want that, especially after how Brexit has turned out.  UK has ended free movement and was only able to do so by leaving EU outright.  And not just had to leave EU but single market as even Iceland, Norway & Switzerland while not EU members are required to allow free movement due to being part of single market.   With Ukraine joining, I believe EU law is clear in that members can restrict mobility for first seven years but not beyond.  Since won't join until 2030s at earliest likely later, realistically free movement won't come before 2040 and who knows what world will look like then.  I believe while small in size, Montenegro is likely to join in 2025 meaning by 2032 would have free movement to Netherlands but could be sooner as have to renew restrictions after 2 years and again after 5 years so failure to not notify commission and council of intention, it then automatically opens.

If non-EU immigration can understand, but Netherlands can control that and don't need to veer far right.  Heck Denmark which has centre-left government has a very restrictive immigration policy for non-EU migrants.  For EU ones, I think as UK showed its one of those people have to accept hard trade off on as EU seems insistent this is non-negotiable and leaving is only way to end it. 

As for free mobility like US, EU may be same from legal perspective but from practical is not remotely close.  Many Americans live in different state than birth place while in EU that percentage is much lower.  Only 3% live in member state not born in while 28% of Americans live in state not born in.  Fact different culture and language means regardless of rules you will get far less mobility.  Better comparison is Canada.  English Canada is like US with high mobility between provinces but Quebec is more like EU with very little movement to and from due to fact speak different language and have different culture. 
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mileslunn
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« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2023, 01:48:19 PM »

According to that demographic analysis it looks like the Netherlands is one of the very few countries in the industrialized world where women voted more for the right than did men. Any explanation for that?

Gender gaps tend to be small in Europe even though men usually a bit more right wing but usually within Margin of error.  US & Canada are outliers with how big gender gap is just as UK & Ireland are outliers on age gap (young very left, old quite conservative).  I've generally found non-Anglosphere countries don't show age and gender gaps to same degree and instead social class, job, even religion play bigger role.
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