Argentina General Discussion: Shock Therapy

[SInNYC]

I just find it odd that this guy is the first far right populist type that wants to kiss up to the US. Most of these types tend to say like US when Trump was in charge but Joaquin Phoenix here wants good relations with Biden too

Yeah, it's also kind of odd he reversed planned membership in BRICS and is pro-Ukraine.

Why? Center-right and right politics in Latin America have always been pro-western world. Latin America has to deal with this eternal identity crisis between being part of the west or our own thing and that discussion usually correlates to the right-left axis, especially in the most "European" regions like the Southern Cone.

And I wouldn't define Milei as a populist. Not at all.

Many in the US think on a one dimensional linear scale from left to right. Today, the primary determinant of where you are on that scale is social policy (including issues regarding the indigenous), but somebody who is super conservative on corporate issues might qualify. So, Putin = Bolsonaro = fundamentalists = Milei.

[Red Velvet]

The comments you are responding to deal with his position on the war and Russia, also I always love how when you get confronted on this issue you duck it because you can’t defend it.

The conversation literally is about Latin American ideological general left/right alignment on geopolitics and you’re trying to shift it to a Russia discussion because that seems to be your biggest obsession.

Sorry to break it to you but conversations of being Pro-Russia/Pro-Ukraine don’t really matter politically in Latin America as it’s something the large majority of people don’t really care or are invested about.

The large majority sees as an European problem to be resolved even if they have an opinion about it.

[Red Velvet]

I just find it odd that this guy is the first far right populist type that wants to kiss up to the US. Most of these types tend to say like US when Trump was in charge but Joaquin Phoenix here wants good relations with Biden too

Yeah, it's also kind of odd he reversed planned membership in BRICS and is pro-Ukraine.

Why? Center-right and right politics in Latin America have always been pro-western world. Latin America has to deal with this eternal identity crisis between being part of the west or our own thing and that discussion usually correlates to the right-left axis, especially in the most "European" regions like the Southern Cone.

And I wouldn't define Milei as a populist. Not at all.

Milei is 100% a populist when he provides easy answers to harsh problems. Dropping the Peso for Dollar or breaking the central bank are examples of populist promises, regardless if they had only an electoral populist purpose or whether he actually goes through with them.

Problem is that people try to define Populism as an ideology instead of a style/aesthetic/strategy these days.

There are populists who are conservatives; leftists and yes, libertarians as well. Depending of the context they’re each located.

[Hindsight was 2020]

The comments you are responding to deal with his position on the war and Russia, also I always love how when you get confronted on this issue you duck it because you can’t defend it.

The conversation literally is about Latin American ideological general left/right alignment on geopolitics and you’re trying to shift it to a Russia discussion because that seems to be your biggest obsession.

Sorry to break it to you but conversations of being Pro-Russia/Pro-Ukraine don’t really matter politically in Latin America as it’s something the large majority of people don’t really care or are invested about.

The large majority sees as an European problem to be resolved even if they have an opinion about it.

I’m the one who started the conversation and it was in relation to his positions on the West and Ukraine being out of line with other far right populist 🙄

[Red Velvet]

The comments you are responding to deal with his position on the war and Russia, also I always love how when you get confronted on this issue you duck it because you can’t defend it.

The conversation literally is about Latin American ideological general left/right alignment on geopolitics and you’re trying to shift it to a Russia discussion because that seems to be your biggest obsession.

Sorry to break it to you but conversations of being Pro-Russia/Pro-Ukraine don’t really matter politically in Latin America as it’s something the large majority of people don’t really care or are invested about.

The large majority sees as an European problem to be resolved even if they have an opinion about it.

I’m the one who started the conversation and it was in relation to his positions on the West and Ukraine being out of line with other far right populist 🙄

Yeah and people pointed out it was NOT, which you ignored.

Since Russia vs Ukraine is your preferred conflict for the sake of examples, go search for who are the biggest and more vocal Pro-Ukraine groups in LatAm, even if minimal, and you’ll see that the correlation with the Right is much much stronger.

Though I will reinforce, it’s a specific matter that neither Right or Left are particularly invested on to even have a well-defined position, regardless if it’s to defend Ukraine or Russia.

[Hindsight was 2020]

The comments you are responding to deal with his position on the war and Russia, also I always love how when you get confronted on this issue you duck it because you can’t defend it.

The conversation literally is about Latin American ideological general left/right alignment on geopolitics and you’re trying to shift it to a Russia discussion because that seems to be your biggest obsession.

Sorry to break it to you but conversations of being Pro-Russia/Pro-Ukraine don’t really matter politically in Latin America as it’s something the large majority of people don’t really care or are invested about.

The large majority sees as an European problem to be resolved even if they have an opinion about it.

I’m the one who started the conversation and it was in relation to his positions on the West and Ukraine being out of line with other far right populist 🙄

Yeah and people pointed out it was NOT, which you ignored.

Since Russia vs Ukraine is your preferred conflict for the sake of examples, go search for who are the biggest and more vocal Pro-Ukraine groups in LatAm, even if minimal, and you’ll see that the correlation with the Right is much much stronger.

Though I will reinforce, it’s a specific matter that neither Right or Left are particularly invested on to even have a well-defined position, regardless if it’s to defend Ukraine or Russia.

No you did all you did was go on one of your typical rants about how far right figures like the West which isn’t true heck Bolsonaro doesn’t even like the West he was just a Trump lover. I was talking in the context of far right figures around the globe that are actually taking over and Milei so far fp is the only one that stands out as different

[Red Velvet]

The comments you are responding to deal with his position on the war and Russia, also I always love how when you get confronted on this issue you duck it because you can’t defend it.

The conversation literally is about Latin American ideological general left/right alignment on geopolitics and you’re trying to shift it to a Russia discussion because that seems to be your biggest obsession.

Sorry to break it to you but conversations of being Pro-Russia/Pro-Ukraine don’t really matter politically in Latin America as it’s something the large majority of people don’t really care or are invested about.

The large majority sees as an European problem to be resolved even if they have an opinion about it.

I’m the one who started the conversation and it was in relation to his positions on the West and Ukraine being out of line with other far right populist 🙄

Yeah and people pointed out it was NOT, which you ignored.

Since Russia vs Ukraine is your preferred conflict for the sake of examples, go search for who are the biggest and more vocal Pro-Ukraine groups in LatAm, even if minimal, and you’ll see that the correlation with the Right is much much stronger.

Though I will reinforce, it’s a specific matter that neither Right or Left are particularly invested on to even have a well-defined position, regardless if it’s to defend Ukraine or Russia.

No you did all you did was go on one of your typical rants about how far right figures like the West which isn’t true heck Bolsonaro doesn’t even like the West he was just a Trump lover. I was talking in the context of far right figures around the globe that are actually taking over and Milei so far fp is the only one that stands out as different

You have your understanding of the West as a liberal bastion of justice, which is why you see it naturally opposed to Bolsonaro and far-right figures. Which gives you an inherent misunderstanding of how Latin American politics work.

You may believe in it but that’s simply not what the West represents for a lot of people and places though. Who do you think Pinochet, the dictator, was more aligned towards, for example? In both past AND present, far-right politicians are more aligned towards the West than progressive politicians in the context of Latin America.

[Hindsight was 2020]

It’s kinda ironic that you accuse me of being obsessed with the Russian-Ukrainian war when you ultimately make all your political arguments come back to the Cold War, at least I’m talking about a current ongoing issue

[Edu]

[Red Velvet]

No you did all you did was go on one of your typical rants about how far right figures like the West which isn’t true heck Bolsonaro doesn’t even like the West he was just a Trump lover. I was talking in the context of far right figures around the globe that are actually taking over and Milei so far fp is the only one that stands out as different

You deflect from the point because you know you are wrong. Pick ANY leaderships from Cold War or Post Cold War and the Right will tend to side with the West much more, simply because the West historically supports the Right outside their borders much more as well. That is not an opinion, but a pure fact.

Bolsonaro being too incompetent or evil to maintain that because Western Liberals got Woke about Gays and the Environment and act like suddenly they aren’t supposed to represent whiteness (and seem to believe what they really represent is Liberal Democracy lol) does not change what is an internal local reality.

Like, Bolsonaro isn’t really THAT different from your average Latin American Right-wing leader regardless if they’re from cold war (ex: Pinochet) or post cold war (ex: Uribe)

Anyway, Milei’s flop inauguration only had 8 global leaders total going to celebrate it:

- Armenia
- Chile
- Ecuador
- Spain
- Hungary
- Paraguay
- Ukraine
- Uruguay

Basically, all the right-wing governments in South America (you can maybe include Boric in there lolz) + Spain for obvious cultural ties not related to ideology + Armenia whose interest is a mystery to me + Hungary and Ukraine for new geopolitical club ally, at least in how those two perceive Milei.

First time a Brazilian president doesn’t go to the Argentinian president inauguration in 40 years, since democracy returned to Argentina. Which is quite significant.

Bolsonaro was invited and went to the inauguration as Milei’s friend though.

[Hindsight was 2020]

No you did all you did was go on one of your typical rants about how far right figures like the West which isn’t true heck Bolsonaro doesn’t even like the West he was just a Trump lover. I was talking in the context of far right figures around the globe that are actually taking over and Milei so far fp is the only one that stands out as different

You deflect from the point because you know you are wrong. Pick ANY leaderships from Cold War or Post Cold War and the Right will tend to side with the West much more, simply because the West historically supports the Right outside their borders much more as well. That is not an opinion, but a pure fact.

Bolsonaro being too incompetent or evil to maintain that because Western Liberals got Woke about Gays and the Environment and act like suddenly they aren’t supposed to represent whiteness (and seem to believe what they really represent is Liberal Democracy lol) does not change what is an internal local reality.

Like, Bolsonaro isn’t really THAT different from your average Latin American Right-wing leader regardless if they’re from cold war (ex: Pinochet) or post cold war (ex: Uribe)

Anyway, Milei’s flop inauguration only had 8 global leaders total going to celebrate it:

- Armenia
- Chile
- Ecuador
- Spain
- Hungary
- Paraguay
- Ukraine
- Uruguay

Basically, all the right-wing governments in South America (you can maybe include Boric in there lolz) + Spain for obvious cultural ties not related to ideology + Armenia whose interest is a mystery to me + Hungary and Ukraine for new geopolitical club ally, at least in how those two perceive Milei.

First time a Brazilian president doesn’t go to the Argentinian president inauguration in 40 years, since democracy returned to Argentina. Which is quite significant.

Bolsonaro was invited and went to the inauguration as Milei’s friend though.

So I guess Saddam Hussein, Taliban, or the Ayatollah don’t exist

[Red Velvet]

So I guess Saddam Hussein, Taliban, or the Ayatollah don’t exist

I thought it was well-established that we were talking about Latin America in here but oh well.

West being against Muslims regardless if they’re left or right isn’t the “gotcha” you seem to believe it is btw.

[Edu]

First time a Brazilian president doesn’t go to the Argentinian president inauguration in 40 years, since democracy returned to Argentina. Which is quite significant.

Bolsonaro didn't come in 2019

[Red Velvet]

First time a Brazilian president doesn’t go to the Argentinian president inauguration in 40 years, since democracy returned to Argentina. Which is quite significant.

Bolsonaro didn't come in 2019

You’re 100% right. It’s my instinct to not think of that guy as an actual president because he didn’t feel like one but he still was.

I should note that Bolsonaro still sent someone more high-profile, the then Vice-President Hamilton Mourão. Lula is sending the current Minister of Foreign Relations Mauro Vieira, though the current Vice-President Alckmin is also a minister (of Industry) and isn’t really ever delegated for External Relations stuff, making Mauro Vieira the natural next one in line.

[MaxQue]

No you did all you did was go on one of your typical rants about how far right figures like the West which isn’t true heck Bolsonaro doesn’t even like the West he was just a Trump lover. I was talking in the context of far right figures around the globe that are actually taking over and Milei so far fp is the only one that stands out as different

You deflect from the point because you know you are wrong. Pick ANY leaderships from Cold War or Post Cold War and the Right will tend to side with the West much more, simply because the West historically supports the Right outside their borders much more as well. That is not an opinion, but a pure fact.

Bolsonaro being too incompetent or evil to maintain that because Western Liberals got Woke about Gays and the Environment and act like suddenly they aren’t supposed to represent whiteness (and seem to believe what they really represent is Liberal Democracy lol) does not change what is an internal local reality.

Like, Bolsonaro isn’t really THAT different from your average Latin American Right-wing leader regardless if they’re from cold war (ex: Pinochet) or post cold war (ex: Uribe)

Anyway, Milei’s flop inauguration only had 8 global leaders total going to celebrate it:

- Armenia
- Chile
- Ecuador
- Spain
- Hungary
- Paraguay
- Ukraine
- Uruguay

Basically, all the right-wing governments in South America (you can maybe include Boric in there lolz) + Spain for obvious cultural ties not related to ideology + Armenia whose interest is a mystery to me + Hungary and Ukraine for new geopolitical club ally, at least in how those two perceive Milei.

First time a Brazilian president doesn’t go to the Argentinian president inauguration in 40 years, since democracy returned to Argentina. Which is quite significant.

Bolsonaro was invited and went to the inauguration as Milei’s friend though.

Apparently, the previous government was a vocal supporter of Armenia in their conflict with Azerbaijan.

[Red Velvet]

Milei 1st Decree as President of Argentina: Reduction of ministries from 18 to 9.

I already am unable to think of 18 ministries as excessive (Lula has 38, Bolsonaro had 23 after reducing it), with just 9 I question how Milei will be able to do anything without giving ministry seats in exchange of congressional support lol.

These will be Milei’s 9 ministries:
- Interior
- External Relations and International Commerce
- Defense
- Economy
- Infrastructure
- Justice
- Security
- Health
- Human Capital (? - apparently it mixes Education; Labour and Social Development all into one thing)

Either he will fully delegate his entire government to JxC people and be in practice Macri 2.0 or he will put “his people” in there and lose congressional and institutional support. I’m not aware of all the names, only a few, but based on the ones I’ve heard I am going to say 1st option.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

I just find it odd that this guy is the first far right populist type that wants to kiss up to the US. Most of these types tend to say like US when Trump was in charge but Joaquin Phoenix here wants good relations with Biden too

Yeah, it's also kind of odd he reversed planned membership in BRICS and is pro-Ukraine.

Why? Center-right and right politics in Latin America have always been pro-western world. Latin America has to deal with this eternal identity crisis between being part of the west or our own thing and that discussion usually correlates to the right-left axis, especially in the most "European" regions like the Southern Cone.

And I wouldn't define Milei as a populist. Not at all.

Milei is absolutely a populist. Just swap out “oligarquía” for “casta”.

[Edu]

I already am unable to think of 18 ministries as excessive (Lula has 38, Bolsonaro had 23 after reducing it), with just 9 I question how Milei will be able to do anything without giving ministry seats in exchange of congressional support lol.

38? lolwut

The maximum we ever had was 21 under Macri. I mean, we have a bunch of secretaries that are one step below a minister, are you referring to those? I can't even think of 38 possible ministries lol

EDIT: until Cristina Kirchner we never had more than 10 ministers

[Red Velvet]

I already am unable to think of 18 ministries as excessive (Lula has 38, Bolsonaro had 23 after reducing it), with just 9 I question how Milei will be able to do anything without giving ministry seats in exchange of congressional support lol.

38? lolwut

The maximum we ever had was 21 under Macri. I mean, we have a bunch of secretaries that are one step below a minister, are you referring to those? I can't even think of 38 possible ministries lol

EDIT: until Cristina Kirchner we never had more than 10 ministers

No, I’m talking about actual ministries

Difference of political systems, I guess. You probably don’t need as much ministries because there are less parties/alliances in congress, which defines support for government more easily.

Milei only needs to court his own LLA base (or assume they will support him no matter how much he sh*ts on them as they don’t have a choice) and open his ass to JxC in order to have some sort of stability.

The Peronists aren’t that necessary, maybe only somewhat in order to try to construct a senate majority.

Brazil has many more parties and large majority of them have no ideology anyway, so they simply tend to always be pro-government AS LONG AS the government is willing to give them power - which in turns gives them reelection.

And a way of conceding this power is by giving these people ministries. So in Brazil you need to have ministries to give to your political base so that they’re happy enough (so they don’t turn on you) and that you have people you trust in + ministries for ally parties that supported you + ministries for NON-ALLY centrão parties that did not support you but will vote with you if you give them favors.

Bolsonaro initially reduced to 18 in his term but inevitably had to add ministries as time passed in order to have some room for everyone, so he ended up with 23 lmao.

Since you’re skeptical, here’s the list of 38 in wikipedia: https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minist%C3%A9rios_do_Brasil

As you can see there are some ministries that are quite specific like:

- Women Ministry
- Racial Equality Ministry
- Sports Ministry
- Cities Ministry
- Fishing and Aquaculture Ministry
- Tourism Ministry
- Social Security Ministry
- Native People Ministry

Etc

[Flyersfan232]

is the us a out liner in not having foregin heads of states at its presidential inaurgation?

[Battista Minola 1616]

I just find it odd that this guy is the first far right populist type that wants to kiss up to the US. Most of these types tend to say like US when Trump was in charge but Joaquin Phoenix here wants good relations with Biden too

Yeah, it's also kind of odd he reversed planned membership in BRICS and is pro-Ukraine.

Why? Center-right and right politics in Latin America have always been pro-western world. Latin America has to deal with this eternal identity crisis between being part of the west or our own thing and that discussion usually correlates to the right-left axis, especially in the most "European" regions like the Southern Cone.

And I wouldn't define Milei as a populist. Not at all.

Milei is absolutely a populist. Just swap out “oligarquía” for “casta”.

Yes, populism refers to a political style and it's one that Milei embodies well enough (after all, he got the sort of electorate he did in the first round while running in the country which made of Populism™ its dominant political movement). Although I get the sense that his presidency will be less populist than his campaign.

[Peeperkorn]

Brazil has many more parties and large majority of them have no ideology anyway, so they simply tend to always be pro-government AS LONG AS the government is willing to give them power - which in turns gives them reelection.

And a way of conceding this power is by giving these people ministries. So in Brazil you need to have ministries to give to your political base so that they’re happy enough (so they don’t turn on you) and that you have people you trust in + ministries for ally parties that supported you + ministries for NON-ALLY centrão parties that did not support you but will vote with you if you give them favors.

Bolsonaro initially reduced to 18 in his term but inevitably had to add ministries as time passed in order to have some room for everyone, so he ended up with 23 lmao.

Since you’re skeptical, here’s the list of 38 in wikipedia: https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minist%C3%A9rios_do_Brasil

As you can see there are some ministries that are quite specific like:

- Women Ministry
- Racial Equality Ministry
- Sports Ministry
- Cities Ministry
- Fishing and Aquaculture Ministry
- Tourism Ministry
- Social Security Ministry
- Native People Ministry

Etc

And you support this?

[Red Velvet]

Brazil has many more parties and large majority of them have no ideology anyway, so they simply tend to always be pro-government AS LONG AS the government is willing to give them power - which in turns gives them reelection.

And a way of conceding this power is by giving these people ministries. So in Brazil you need to have ministries to give to your political base so that they’re happy enough (so they don’t turn on you) and that you have people you trust in + ministries for ally parties that supported you + ministries for NON-ALLY centrão parties that did not support you but will vote with you if you give them favors.

Bolsonaro initially reduced to 18 in his term but inevitably had to add ministries as time passed in order to have some room for everyone, so he ended up with 23 lmao.

Since you’re skeptical, here’s the list of 38 in wikipedia: https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minist%C3%A9rios_do_Brasil

As you can see there are some ministries that are quite specific like:

- Women Ministry
- Racial Equality Ministry
- Sports Ministry
- Cities Ministry
- Fishing and Aquaculture Ministry
- Tourism Ministry
- Social Security Ministry
- Native People Ministry

Etc

And you support this?

Lol at the notion that it is something that can be “supported” or not. As long as Centrão (Big Center) exists, it is simply necessary for any leader to conciliate these interests in order to be able to effectively govern.

I obviously hate these non-ideological congresspeople (which composed both Bolsonaro’s and Lula’s base) but they were ELECTED by the people and in a democratic system the powers need to work with whatever they were given.

Problem is that leaders make them stronger by conciliating with them so it’s a “screwed if you do, screwed if you don’t” situation. Because it’s also not good for the country stability or even for individual electoral purposes for the president to buy a fight with Congress.

As long as this system with 30+ non-ideological parties exists, it’s simply inevitable. The only solution would be a political reform to limit the number of parties with seats in congress based on a rigid threshold. Parties would need to merge in order to survive.

Or even better, for people to simply stop voting for these Centrão parties! It’s inevitable though because these people are careerist politicians who know how to deliver the exact minimum in exchange of votes.

[Peeperkorn]

Orban and Zelensky together at yesterday's inauguration:

https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/status/1733967086743912788?s=20

https://twitter.com/DanielDiMartino/status/1733956673662853594?s=20

[Peeperkorn]

https://twitter.com/ukigoni/status/1733905677146365985?s=20