Politics and Elections in the Netherlands: Rutte III era

[DC Al Fine]

Do you feel better, now that Germany is having trouble forming a government?

[DC Al Fine]

There have been problems with fireworks all over the country. Even as a right-winger raised in a relatively rural place I must say that I'm tired of it by now, maybe the call for banning or more strictly regulating it will grow now. Yesterday a man died in front of his children because he f**ed up with fireworks, but most of the victims are bystanders.

Also wanted to shamelessly abuse this thread for announcing that this will be my last post of 2017 on atlas, I have to get back to my parents and the oliebollen now .

Happy New Year!

Polls indicate that there has been a silent majority that is highly critical of consumer fireworks for years. According to a TNS NIPO poll (2017), 69% of the Dutch never buy any fireworks. And then look at the victims and the costs. Proponents always say that the problems stem from illegal fireworks, but apparently approximately 20% of legal consumer fireworks are defective. Fireworks, not Zwarte Piet, should be the most controversial Dutch "tradition". I have always supported a ban, but it seems things are finally going to change now, though I expect it to take a few more years and a lot more hands, eyes and lives.

This is an issue I definitely take into account when deciding whom to vote for in the local election.

Wait, how bad is it? I find it mildly annoying on New Year's because I can't go to bed for a little while after midnight due to the noise, but it isn't that bad.

[DC Al Fine]

How Islamist is NIDA? Are they the weird woke Islam you get on campuses or what?

I went to high school with someone like that. Very interesting to talk to but very weird.

[DC Al Fine]

Meanwhile, the PvdD are introducing a new initiative law to ban Jewish and Muslim ritual slaughter. The difference with the previous initiative will be that a five-year "transition period" is part of the plan. The previous initiative passed in pariament with support of all non-confessional parties, but was soundly defeated in the Senate, where VVD, PvdA and D66 decided to oppose the initiative in addition to the confessional parties. CDA, SGP, CU and DENK will definitely oppose the new PvdD initiative, PVV and PvdD will definitely support it.

This is why I love Dutch politics: the tiny parties that would meet enter parliament elsewhere, and the bizarre alliances formed to pass/defeat legislation.

[DC Al Fine]

This might be a silly question for the Netherlands, but are there any underserved demographics that a new party could win over fairly easily?

[DC Al Fine]

David, where is your profile if the all-important Urk council race?

[DC Al Fine]

Urk actually has been trending hard to the SGP the past decade. Probably a result of the CDA collapse and the increased importance of issues like the EU and immigration, and on those issues the leftish CU doesn't align with the conservative fishers in Urk. Maybe the ban on electric pulse fishing will play a role. French fishers ran a campaign filled with unscientific and unsubstantiated arguments against electric pulse fishing and because the French fishers succeeded in their campaign Dutch fishers who successfully invested in these technologies are screwed. I imagine this doesn't help the EU in Urk. But Urk doesn't have a SGP majority in the council btw, there are quite a lot of local parties there. They don't even have a SGP mayor (CDA).

Thanks mvd and David. I was joking and wasn't expecting a response but your answers are great

[DC Al Fine]

Which is the third Muslim party?

Really happy with this result. De Mos and the VVD should now form a government, perhaps with CDA and D66. Absolutely brutal for the PVV. Shows that PVV voters do notice when the party performs well: only a small loss in Almere (from 9 to 7 seats is not great, but respectable), where they are generally doing a good job at representing voters, and huge losses in The Hague, where they are absolutely useless and an embarrassment. Apart from this, 15 parties is really a lot... and 3 Muslim parties with 1 seat each, lol.

NIDA, PvdE and Islam Democrats

Lol, Muslims are trying to be the new orthodox Calvinists...

What's the difference between the three parties?

[DC Al Fine]

I don't like the alt-right's use of the work cuck, but I had to admit, it seems fitting in this case.

[DC Al Fine]

Is there a lot of NIMBYism when it comes to red light districts and where brothels operate?

[DC Al Fine]

Apologies if this has been asked before, but how do Jews vote in the Netherlands? Is there much variation in the community (i.e. nominal vs Haredi)

[DC Al Fine]

Aha wow, just wow.

[DC Al Fine]

An incredibly sad story. I have to say that I was skeptical at first, but now it has been revealed that the mayor of The Hague, Pauline Krikke, knew about Dille's story, as did the police. Dille's video with subtitles can be viewed here. If this really happened, this country is sick.

Honestly I'm surprised similar scandals (eg Rotherham) haven't caused mass riots. The police not doing their jobs because they're worried that arresting rapists might create anti-immigrant sentiment is a big effort into deal. It's outrageous.

[DC Al Fine]

How are dividends taxed in the Netherlands currently and what is the proposed tax cut?

[DC Al Fine]

The government intends to introduce a proposal that requires people who want a firearm permit to disclose information on their race/ethnicity, religious beliefs, and political views, Minister of Justice and Security Ferdinand Grapperhaus (CDA) declared. The initiative was immediately criticized heavily by the Council of State, privacy-oriented NGOs, and MPs of coalition parties CDA and D66.

Collecting this type of information remains a highly sensitive subject in the Netherlands, where the highest percentage of Jews in all of Western Europe was deported in the Holocaust, largely due to the excellent administration with detailed information on citizens' background. I think it would be the first time after WW2 that the government would collect this sort of information (attempts at organizing a census failed) and it seems obvious that this is not actually going to happen.

Still, its creepy af that people are even considering this.

'Murica's approach to government does have some virtues.

[DC Al Fine]

RIP to former Prime Minister Wim Kok (PvdA), who just passed away at age 80. Kok led the two purple governments (PvdA-VVD-D66, 1994-2002), was PvdA leader for sixteen years, Finance Minister in the Lubbers-III government for five years (1989-1994), and trade union leader for twelve years. He will be remembered as the union man who ultimately sang the praises of the PvdA "losing its ideological feathers" and embracing the Third Way. Kok led the last coalition before the Fortuyn revolt. At the time, Purple was popular, but everyone who thinks of Purple now thinks of Fortuyn and his electoral success. Afterwards, Kok made a lot of money at ING Bank, Shell, and KLM: he undoubtedly embodies the PvdA's embrace of capitalism.

Not a fan of those Purple cabinets for obvious reasons. RIP.

[DC Al Fine]

Thanks for the political history mvd. I learned a lot.

[DC Al Fine]

The election is all about the Senate. I don't even know what the provincial coalition is around here (but they're all oversized/grand coalitions consisting of a subset of the establishment parties), let alone what they achieved or what the party I voted for last time (SGP) achieved. And if I don't know it, your average voter sure as hell doesn't.

I just went on wiki to look up the Dutch Senate election and found out there's an SP politician named Tiny Kox

[DC Al Fine]

Former PVV and VNL MP Joram van Klaveren converted to Islam. He was actually one of the smart, sane ones (I met him personally), so this is much weirder than when a psycho like Arnoud van Doorn did it. Van Klaveren was writing a book against Islam when he came to the conclusion that he found Islam more logical and appealing than Christianity. But apparently it's not a big transformation, according to him, and he claims to maintain his classical liberal principles. Extremists have it all wrong, he says, and simply don't understand Islam. Good luck with that, Joram.

The "you have your 1000+ year old religion all wrong" crowd are an interesting bunch. Imagine having that kind of self-importance.

[DC Al Fine]

Wilders seems teary-eyed. An air of defeat. He knows he's kind of done.

@Diouf: seems impossible to predict...

Why is he done? Doesn't he run his party with an iron fist?

[DC Al Fine]

Something must be in the water down in Limburg when it comes to the PvdA.

Ploumen is from Limburg and Limburg has a local son/daughter effect like nowhere else (Wilders gets this too). Timmermans also had it in the EU election.

Also to consider - the other Lilian was not exactly in the good books of the SP members in Limburg given she shafted Ron Meijer. So Lilian --> Lillianne if you were an SP voter who doesn't like the leadership seems logical. SP also lost heavily in Boxmeer where Roemer was appreciated.

Especially in Southern Limburg the culture is quite different. People from there consider themselves distinct from the rest of the country. Generally, they regard the rest of the country as Holland and of course they themselves are not included in that. Little anecdote: A friend of mine who comes from Oss in Northern Brabant (a southern province) went to uni in Maastricht. People asked him if he was from the North, of course he replied no, i am from Oss. The Limburgish people answered: That is the north!
What always surprises me most out there is that people flatout refuse to talk Dutch even when you talk to them in Dutch, but cling to their own dialect instead, even in a city like Maastricht

Because I do some groundhopping, and Maastricht is a lovely city, I attended a South Limburg derby between Maastricht and Roda. Huge police presence, mock hangings, songs about WW2 collaboration, game stopped several times for crowd violence, Maastricht fans making a big deal of burning the Limburg flag, but still also finding the time to sing Hollanders Hollanders zet ze maar kapot, Hollanders Hollanders kogel in hun kop", presumably to the referee. Also they insist that Venlo should be part of Brabant, and that the only reason Limburgers aren't independent is because "we hate each other more".

You get the same provincial effect in Belgian Limburg. By far and away the ones who make the most noise about Flemish nationalism favouring Antwerp and Brussels rather than them, always voting for their own, etc.

Interestingly, Limburg also is distinctive in having a much lower birth rate compared to the rest of the Netherlands at least according to data from 2003. https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2003/36/largest-families-in-urk

And of course Urk leads the pack in birth rate

[DC Al Fine]

While the formation of a government is going very slow (negotiations between parties haven't even started yet), an MP has split of from her party already. Sole 50PLUS MP Lianne den Haan has turned independent. Something that was not completelu unexpected, before the elections it emerged that Den Haan disagreed with the party programme on key points as pension reform and retirement age. Still, a split within two months is preposterous.

Seems like that should've been sorted out if you're running for a party like 50Plus

[DC Al Fine]

Netherlands going in total lockdown again tonight - at least until January 14th. Incredible stuff.

How's the public taking this round of lockdown?