TRUMP: "There has to be some form of punishment" for women who have abortions (user search)
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  TRUMP: "There has to be some form of punishment" for women who have abortions (search mode)
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Author Topic: TRUMP: "There has to be some form of punishment" for women who have abortions  (Read 4985 times)
afleitch
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« on: March 31, 2016, 06:06:38 AM »

Because women who seek abortions usually have much more sympathetic motivations, and because, if we're being honest about what sorts of laws a decent society would or should actually tolerate, punishing them is simply impracticable to do in any way that's subjectively reasonable.

I guess, but I still think the people who want to ban abortion but don't want to punish the women should not call abortion murder if they don't intend to punish the woman. It's hypocritical. Why call it murder if you don't intend to treat it like murder?

You're right, actually. This is a good reason to prefer a word like 'homicide'. There are all sorts of types of homicide with all sorts of types of consequences. Unfortunately, 'abortion is homicide' comes across as the sort of technical statement that makes most people's eyes glaze over and makes for terrible copy.

Placing you to the right of Thomas Aquinas there Wink (who would have considered it ‘something less than homicide’)

Ultimately Christian religious objection to abortion is increasingly pseudo-scientific in nature, not religious. Original Christian thinkers made very obvious distinctions, and rather advanced arguments of that distinction between the ‘formed’ and ‘unformed’ foetus (in part because the Bible is peppered with such inferences) Their positions, extrapolated to fit the framework of embryonic development of which we are now aware, are not particularly far removed from the contemporary general position of pro-choicers. As with everything however, the Church shat the bed a few centuries later and we are all having to pay for it.

Like many issues (LGBT matters being another obvious out) we have to deal with religious groups 'opinion forming' without reference to or input from the actual groups affected. What women or gays, think, feel, experience or want is a 'nuisance' to position forming.

For what it’s worth I’ve been pro-choice since I first gave the issue any thought (And I suppose I’ve never shared this before, but taking the position almost got me suspended from the Catholic school I attended but for the fact 14 year old me was able to argue effectively enough with the priest headmaster that he was impressed enough that I had actually put effort into it)

If anything, as a pro-choicer we have to wrestle the ‘ontology’ away from pro-lifers who are setting definitions against which we are measured and by which ‘life’ is defined. For many women, pregnancy is a ‘state’ which they do not wish to be in. Psychologically there is no ‘child’. They are in a state of a psychological and somatic state of which they wish to be relieved. As I argued with you at the start of the year, in opposing abortion by choosing an a priori definition under which to then bar it may satisfy your theological or moral needs, that does nothing to address her needs. Which are very real. There are women, right now who are pregnant. And it is hell for them. In are accepting that a woman has no right to take any action against the physical or psychological harm caused by pregnancy, then you do not have a response to the harm which she is experiencing because you see it as ‘less’ than that which could be experienced by the unborn (which I had suggested was curiously utilitarian of you)

Luckily, with the courts (in the US) there has been a move (in part thanks to the frequent pithy challenges to the law) towards seeing abortion rights as more of an equality over a liberty matter, which addresses this head on; on what assumptions is state intervention in protecting ‘potential’ life based? Are they seeking to protect the unborn in ways it would not do so, but for patriarchal/religious assumptions about women’s roles. Assumptions are being made about how woman should respond to pregnancy, when most terminations occur not on the a priori assumption that in doing so women are consciously rejecting the process, but rather as I mentioned above, that their actions are in response to the state of pregnancy that they are in. What’s helpful to the pro-choice movement is that the anti-choice movement are, generally speaking, so fixed on liberty, as expressed in Roe, that their arguments against equal protection are embryonic at best.

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afleitch
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« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2016, 08:08:24 AM »

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If existence itself is based on feelings, why is murder wrong?

You're sort of proving my point on the ontology!  Because you conceive a zygote as life you make the comparison to murder. A pregnant woman isn't wilfully 'murdering' anything; that is not her intent when choosing an abortion.
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afleitch
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« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2016, 10:43:04 AM »

Placing you to the right of Thomas Aquinas there Wink (who would have considered it ‘something less than homicide’)

And yet, I'm to the left of Gregory of Nyssa on whether or not somebody would go to hell for doing it. Wink

(I'm aware that this may not come across as an appropriate riposte or worthy of a Wink to somebody who's not still reeling from a fall semester spent arguing about patristic and medieval theology.)

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If existence itself is based on feelings, why is murder wrong?

You're sort of proving my point on the ontology!  Because you conceive a zygote as life you make the comparison to murder. A pregnant woman isn't wilfully 'murdering' anything; that is not her intent when choosing an abortion.

This is, I agree, an important distinction, and feeds back into the argument I've been making to (or, in some cases, over against) other pro-lifers over the past day that women who have abortions are way more sympathetic than people who commit murder/homicide/acts that pro-lifers believe to be murder or homicide in other contexts and for other reasons.

Re: Your post directly in response to me: I've alluded in the recent past that while I'd still be personally uncomfortable with an equal-protection finding of a right to abortion I'd accept it as perfectly valid and respectable constitutional law.

In general my thoughts on what the best political/legal (as opposed to religious, moral, medical, feminist activists, et cetera) attitude to adopt or consensus to advocate on this might be have been swinging pretty wildly back and forth for...longer than I've let on, and will probably continue to do so, even though my personal religious/moral attitudes are probably going to stay put (and have been where they are for, again, longer than I've let on).

I haven't yet responded to your main philosophical argument--either at the beginning of the year or now--because I don't yet have the grounding in the relevant fields of philosophy to adequately do so and I respect you too much to bullsh**t something. (Also because I'm on Atlas Forum during a class discussion about WHINSEC and liberation theology and don't want to get too too involved in this conversation right now in case something interesting pops up.)

And I think on that basis, we could have a consensus because ultimately those who are pro-choice are generally not absolutist. No one actually wants everyone to have an abortion under every conceivable circumstance of pregnancy (which is what a theoretical absolutist position would be). Likewise after the point of viability (the point after which when delivered, the foetus ‘may live’ as opposed to ‘always die’), if the foetus and mother are in relatively good health, you are unlikely to find advocacy for it unless the positions change. Indeed, the very fact that viability is able to shift progressively backwards thanks to advances in post-natal care is something that is universally welcomed.

However opposition to abortion under almost every conceivable circumstance (even resulting in nixing what it means by ‘health’ of the mother) is in some areas, becoming mainstream. That opposition can bleed into matters entirely unrelated to being in a state of pregnancy (opposition to birth control) Being pro-life and defining outlook by that ontology can force the movement into what is essentially an absolutist position on the matter (and indeed can lead to some of the hyperbole you’ve just read)

To echo some of that hyperbole in this thread, and to perhaps demonstrate the above, then I would have to consider myself ‘pro-murder’, by another’s definition because I don’t hold an absolutist position with respect to taking a life, even if that life is standing right in front of me and staring me in the face. For very obvious reasons. I’m not going to deny that I’m an animal, like all other animals, when faced with a threat. My grandfather even got medals for it.

Otherwise, I would agree that while employing ‘definitions’ (even if they are strict) would be understandable when trying to define the ‘whole’ they aren’t something that should necessarily be adhered to by the person, nor is it appropriate to elevate a ‘definition’ to such a status in order to facilitate forms of punishment/reward (which shouldn’t necessarily flow from any legal status either) against a person.

That ‘Brand USA’ Christianity (Paul Weyrich et al)  so readily adopted the Catholic position on ‘defining life’, couched as it is marian piety in order to fight the culture wars is the strangest takeaway from all of this!
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