Resist The Authoritarian Response To The Coronavirus

[T'Chenka]

It is definitely, definitely not going to be constitutional to forcibly close a church.  Fortunately, the overwhelming majority of churches have already gone to virtual services voluntarily.

It is constitutional to make content-neutral time/place/manner regulations of first amendment activity.

You are right it would not be constitutional to simply ban church services.

However, it would be entirely constitutional to regulate the sizes of meetings, for example to ban meetings of greater than 50 people (or 20 or 5 people, or perhaps even of 2 people), as is currently occurring in many jurisdictions. This would include church services, but would not apply specifically to church services. It also does not in any way prevent churches from holding online meetings, and there is no particular intent to prevent religious practice or to single out/target religion for some sort of suppression.

Mind you, it wouldn't necessarily be constitutional to ban meetings with a certain # of people if there were no legitimate government purpose/interest for doing so. But in this case, there is a legitimate public interest - namely public health - for doing so.

On the other hand, suppose that the government wanted to ban all online meetings (including online church services). In this case, I don't think there would even be a rational basis for doing so on the basis of public health, so this would not be constitutional.

That's still clearly unconstitutional even if not specifically targeted towards religious groups because it still effectively bans the free practice of religion. You can't make a law that completely bans a constitutional right point blank, even if it is neutrally targeted. As for the online argument, there are many religions, mine included, whose worship includes physical acts not possible over the internet.

It's not unconstitutional to limit religious services to 9 people or less during a national emergency for the sake of public health.

Every church in America can have 9 people in it still.

[T'Chenka]

It is definitely, definitely not going to be constitutional to forcibly close a church.  Fortunately, the overwhelming majority of churches have already gone to virtual services voluntarily.

It is constitutional to make content-neutral time/place/manner regulations of first amendment activity.

You are right it would not be constitutional to simply ban church services.

However, it would be entirely constitutional to regulate the sizes of meetings, for example to ban meetings of greater than 50 people (or 20 or 5 people, or perhaps even of 2 people), as is currently occurring in many jurisdictions. This would include church services, but would not apply specifically to church services. It also does not in any way prevent churches from holding online meetings, and there is no particular intent to prevent religious practice or to single out/target religion for some sort of suppression.

Mind you, it wouldn't necessarily be constitutional to ban meetings with a certain # of people if there were no legitimate government purpose/interest for doing so. But in this case, there is a legitimate public interest - namely public health - for doing so.

On the other hand, suppose that the government wanted to ban all online meetings (including online church services). In this case, I don't think there would even be a rational basis for doing so on the basis of public health, so this would not be constitutional.

That's still clearly unconstitutional even if not specifically targeted towards religious groups because it still effectively bans the free practice of religion. You can't make a law that completely bans a constitutional right point blank, even if it is neutrally targeted. As for the online argument, there are many religions, mine included, whose worship includes physical acts not possible over the internet.

It's not unconstitutional to limit religious services to 9 people or less during a national emergency for the sake of public health.

Every church in America can have 9 people in it still.

You and I know both know that is not a plausible solution that allows the free practice of religion.

It might have to do in a national health emergency.

I'd like to see the Supreme Court rule on this actually.

[T'Chenka]

Libertarians would rather die murder their fellow citizens in an abstract way that allows them to deflect guilt than have any minor social responsibilities placed on them. Shock.

[T'Chenka]

So let me put this out there: we need to have some level of self-quarantine to limit/slow the spread of the virus. But unfortunately, you can't trust everybody to do so. 

At the same civil liberties and freedoms are still important, as is keeping the economy afloat.   

So what's the solution? Is there a middle ground?

At the very least, mass gatherings needs to be broken up by police (HAZMAT-police?). Social distancing is obviously more nuanced. The framework I keep falling back on is WW2 England/London. Some civil liberties may need to be TEMPORARILY suspended or at least "loosened". If I was around back then, I wouldn't be ranting about how Winston Churchill was going to keep the curfew after the nazis were defeated.

[T'Chenka]

So let me put this out there: we need to have some level of self-quarantine to limit/slow the spread of the virus. But unfortunately, you can't trust everybody to do so. 

At the same civil liberties and freedoms are still important, as is keeping the economy afloat.   

So what's the solution? Is there a middle ground?

At the very least, mass gatherings needs to be broken up by police (HAZMAT-police?).

Should they use clubs, dogs, or firehoses? When Trump suspends the elections for the first time ever u gonna say anyone caught protesting the decision should be arrested for breaking quarantine? After all, public protests could cause a 3% risk of and 80 year old chainsmoker dying. MYRRH DURR!

You shouldn't trivialize mass death in our communities.

[T'Chenka]

You shouldn't trivialize mass death in our communities.

WWII levels of mass death!

Exactly.

[T'Chenka]

You think 75 million people are going to die from this?  That's well above even the highest guesses from paranoid people isn't it?

I didn't realize worldwide WW2 death was so high. I think between 25% to 50% of that number will die, but obviously I hope not.

[T'Chenka]

We have ZERO cases in my town

- you can't possibly know that based on USA testing levels

- thst's likely not true, and if it is, that likely will change soon

- this doesn't mean you shouldn't be staying home a lot and social distancing

[T'Chenka]

We have ZERO cases in my town

- you can't possibly know that based on USA testing levels

- thst's likely not true, and if it is, that likely will change soon

- this doesn't mean you shouldn't be staying home a lot and social distancing

I work for the government in a critical position! Im not going to phucking sit and home and neglect the public im supposed to serve because of media driven panic! You really expect me to poke someone with a yard stick any time I have to help with a customer at the counter or hand someone a piece of paper? You are demanding that we shut down over suspicion. Medical Mccarthyism is insane. Whats next, mandatory thermometer readings before someone can enter a bathroom. News is reporting mob violence against suspected infected people. This is NOT an OK way to react to a disease that does not kill 99% of infecteds and has not infected 99% of people. This is going to go down as one of the biggest mass panic overreactions in modern times.

Obviously you are an "essential worker" (ike myself) so I would not and have not recommend you not go to work.

[T'Chenka]

No one will EVER prevent me from attending mass obligations for any reason. If Pennsylvania instituted this, I will flee to New Jersey or Virginia. If all churches complied and locked their doors, I will livestream from outside the church. If anyone tried to stop me and others from fulfilling that obligation as best I can, I will have to start exercising my other rights.
...

Does this sound like a serious comment of yours?
You describe your commitment to your religion, and then end it by saying that you may need to possibly shoot people.
WTF is that? What level of morality is in your soul?
I didnt even know you were religious. Or is this just another (poor) troll attempt from you?
And if you are religious (Christian I assume), shame on you for wanting to "exercise your other rights," just because you cant go to mass.

I have never missed mass and never intend to. No one will infringe on that right. It seems the churches are closed up and down the east coast. Standing outside and streaming it is.

And you may need to shoot people over this?
ARE YOU LISTENING TO YOURSELF !!

Its not something you could ever understand.  Stop harassing people who dare to live their faith.

Shooting people is not "living your faith".

[T'Chenka]

I am harming nobody by standing outside a church building one and a half blocks from my home in order to honor the Lord in open air. I have been far more considerate about the impacts of this disease than 90% of Americans who are continuing about their business as usual all up in each other's faces on the sidewalk. I do not believe in compromise but unflinchingly following absolute moral directives. I will not let your completely baseless teenage paranoia dictate my life when I am more considerate than everyone around me.

Listening to scientists and experts and mathematicians is basically the total opposite of "teenage paranoia", and in fact it is LITERALLY the opposite of the definition of "baseless".

Speaking of "tragedies" - I am reminded of the classic George Costanza quote:
"51 people?! That's it?! I thought it was like a thousand!...That's no tragedy!" [You can multiply both those numbers by 500 for this exercise.] THIS IS NOT THE BLACK PLAGUE

If you think only 25 or 26 thousand will be the death toll in America, you're living in a fantasy land.

[T'Chenka]

Speaking of "tragedies" - I am reminded of the classic George Costanza quote:
"51 people?! That's it?! I thought it was like a thousand!...That's no tragedy!" [You can multiply both those numbers by 500 for this exercise.] THIS IS NOT THE BLACK PLAGUE

If you think only 25 or 26 thousand will be the death toll in America, you're living in a fantasy land.

You're really digging your heels on 25 million, aren't you? I'll gladly have a signature/avatar wager over this. I'd say 250k looks like the obvious break-even point between our two projections but I'll even give you 150k. Anything less in the US and I win (and so does America). Take it or leave it.

I don't like using an image host, no avatar bets. Signature bet that results in two full months of signature, 150k USA deaths between now and July 1st 2021 from either coronavirus or claimed by MULTIPLE reasonably credible news sources to be DIRECTLY caused by COVID-19 overpowering the hospitals.

I really hope you win. Deal?

[T'Chenka]

Let’s be honest here, a large number of the “anti-authoritarian” posters who are against these lockdown measures seem more concerned about inconveniences to their own lives as opposed to actual authoritarianism. That isn’t everyone, but some posters definitely seem to be more concerned about themselves than, well, authoritarianism.

They need to put their privilege in check.

[T'Chenka]

I agree with the economic arguments here. But, there is still most freedom of movement in the countries under lockdown. Unless people feel like having to print a document to show authorities, at most, is equivalent to living in a dictatorial regime, the conspiratorial hysteria is unwarranted.

I actually live under lockdown right now. You can only leave your home for work (if you are one of the few who still have it), to buy groceries and that is pretty much it.

That is most definitely not freedom of movement; and it's probably worse than even most dictatorships out there

Can you walk your dog to poop, as long as you don't go more than 1km away?

[T'Chenka]

I wish we had an “authoritarian” response ten days ago when this was posted. Looks like freedom doesn’t cure Covid-19, who knew?

What are you even talking about?

Lockdowns = Less Deaths

[T'Chenka]

The people supporting lockdowns are being strikingly selfish. They're putting money ahead of our social institutions, which will suffer under lockdowns.

Our social institutions not going on hiatus is not more important than saving tens of thousands of lives. Your "putting money ahead" comment is nonsense.

[T'Chenka]

Lawsuits Swell as Owners, From Gun Shops to Golf Courses, Demand to Open

Some of those suing their state governments seek redress for specific, local grievances, as with the golf course or in a similar suit in Pennsylvania being pursued by a company that says it is the country’s oldest manufacturer of orchestra-quality bells and chimes. Those lawsuits and one in Arizona are rooted in the Fifth Amendment, which requires due process and guarantees compensation for property seized by the government.

Other constitutional amendments have been invoked in several lawsuits in recent weeks attempting to force open gun stores, or to argue that measures to curb the virus should not outweigh rights like freedom of assembly and religion.

Americans arguing for the right to commit societal suicide by greed and mass murder by stupidity is so perfectly in character. As a nation, we worship at the altar of Mammon, sacrificing our selves and the lives of our fellow human beings.

yeah, screw the constitution!

If China deploys their entire army, navy and air force to destroy America starting with LA and NYC, and Trump refuses to fight back, and the congress will not force Trump to do anything, are you going to cry and scream when the YS military goes against the Constitution and defends the citizens? REAL life and death emergency situations - not political "emergencies" like Trump's border wall - require bending of the rules sometimes unfortunately to make sure Americans don't die.

[T'Chenka]

If China deploys their entire army, navy and air force to destroy America starting with LA and NYC, and Trump refuses to fight back, and the congress will not force Trump to do anything, are you going to cry and scream when the YS military goes against the Constitution and defends the citizens? REAL life and death emergency situations - not political "emergencies" like Trump's border wall - require bending of the rules sometimes unfortunately to make sure Americans don't die.

authoritarians are going to authoritate, but that's ok, we need people on all sides of a position.


also, do you think the US military needs the POTUSs go ahead to defend the country?  'cause that would be weird thing to believe.


(also also, what is "YS military")

I'm only an emergency-time authoritarian. North Americans are too willfully ignorant, narcissistic and stupid to do what is in tbe best interests of their communities in extreme life and death scenarios.

Doesn't the Commander In Chief get to order the military to stand down if he wants to?

YS military is me having big fingers and typing on a small-ish smartphone screen without autocorrect.

[T'Chenka]

I'm only an emergency-time authoritarian. North Americans are too willfully ignorant, narcissistic and stupid to do what is in tbe best interests of their communities in extreme life and death scenarios.

isn't the per capita rate still way higher in the hardest hit European countries?  Are we more willfully ignorant, narcissistic and stupid than they are?

Doesn't the Commander In Chief get to order the military to stand down if he wants to?

I suppose he could, but do you think the Field Commanders would listen?  I don't think they would.

YS military is me having big fingers and typing on a small-ish smartphone screen without autocorrect.

ahh, my bad, I should have figured that out.

1 - Europe might be too ignorant and narcissistic, I'm not sure. North America definitely is though.

2 - That's my point dead0. When the field commanders disobey, are you.going to criticize them for going against the constitution? I certainly will not.

3 - No worries dude.

[T'Chenka]

I stand with Rick Savage.

Your liberties do not extend into the lungs of others. Rick Savage should be fined and/or locked up for endangering public safety.

[T'Chenka]

https://www.dailywire.com/news/compliance-would-be-disobedience-prominent-california-church-defies-state-lockdown-to-resume-in-person-assembly

Amen to all of this.  God Bless John MacArthur.

The bible says  (paraphrasing here) that it's better to pray in private instead of virtue signalling your religiousness to others. Jesus would almost certainly in these times advocate for private / family prayer and phone / text / email / video chat / streaming with your pastor and congregation.

Why does MacArthur ignore all of this and put his local community at risk? Why are you cheerleading this?

[T'Chenka]

It's time for America to go back to Church.  2 Chronicles 7:14 says:  "If my people, who are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek My Face, and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from Heaven, and I will forgive their sin and their their land (emphasis added)."  The death rate is hardly catastrophic.  We have been given all sorts of misinformation, and more of it is from Donald Trump's enemies than from Donald Trump.  It's still problematic, but it may, in fact, be here to stay.  What if none of these vaccines pan out?  It's time to live our lives, live them for God, and trust Him in all things.  Trusting involves obeying Him.  And if protesters should "keep doing it", I'm at a total loss for why the Church shouldn't.

Fuzzy, once again, two wrongs don't make a right. If the protestors didn't socially distance and spread the virus, that doesn't make it okay for others to do the same. It makes them both wrong. You should listen to the PROFESSIONAL SCIENTISTS Fuzzy, who understand how this virus works. They're saying a vaccine is not guaranteed but it's likely we'll get one at some point. They also say how dangerous and deadly this virus is. Those scientists used the brains God gave them to investigate the virus that came from God's creatures. So trust in God by trusting in science. Leave the politics at the door as much as possible when dabbling in epidemiology.

By the way, God bless your wife, your son and yourself. I'm very glad that you are all okay.

[T'Chenka]

It's time for America to go back to Church.  2 Chronicles 7:14 says:  "If my people, who are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek My Face, and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from Heaven, and I will forgive their sin and their their land (emphasis added)."  The death rate is hardly catastrophic.  We have been given all sorts of misinformation, and more of it is from Donald Trump's enemies than from Donald Trump.  It's still problematic, but it may, in fact, be here to stay.  What if none of these vaccines pan out?  It's time to live our lives, live them for God, and trust Him in all things.  Trusting involves obeying Him.  And if protesters should "keep doing it", I'm at a total loss for why the Church shouldn't.

Fuzzy, once again, two wrongs don't make a right. If the protestors didn't socially distance and spread the virus, that doesn't make it okay for others to do the same. It makes them both wrong. You should listen to the PROFESSIONAL SCIENTISTS Fuzzy, who understand how this virus works. They're saying a vaccine is not guaranteed but it's likely we'll get one at some point. They also say how dangerous and deadly this virus is. Those scientists used the brains God gave them to investigate the virus that came from God's creatures. So trust in God by trusting in science. Leave the politics at the door as much as possible when dabbling in epidemiology.

By the way, God bless your wife, your son and yourself. I'm very glad that you are all okay.

Were the protesters wrong for hitting the streets?  Should they all have stayed home, social distanced, used Zoom and social media to "have their voice heard"?  Is that what they should have done.  Were they wrong for hitting the streets as they did in the midst of a pandemic?

That's a hard question. I'm going to have to say "no".

Outdoors, mask wearing and social distancing all work really well together. I would support a protest OR a church service where all 3 are happening, unless it's a certain area with VERY high levels of COVID.

[T'Chenka]

I could give the post some credence when it was posted, but "the science" supports reopening schools.  Yet the Science Worshipers of March are ignoring science because it is politically inconvenient.  Following science (including the science of psychology and mental health) does not justify keeping schools closed.

Actually it does.

You still haven't explained why your arguments are justifiable as pure ideological statements, and if they are not, you haven't clarified the contexts in which your arguments are being made. Let me help you with that.

(#1) If this is the black plague instead of COVID-19, should schools and churches be open? If so, please provide justification for why.

(#2) If you agree that you'd feel differently if it was black plague, please explain where you draw the line exactly and your justification for why that is an appropriate place to draw the line.

[T'Chenka]

We listen to scientists. PERIOD.

If scientists are urging temporary authoritarian measures, we TEMPORARILY adopt them.

Why are some people hellbent on getting everybody killed over "Muh Freedom"? This isn't everyday politics and rights, we are in a life and death emergency here. The same rules don't apply and as someone else said, your rights do not extend into the lungs of others.

We're way past this.  This is a post that hasn't aged well.

I could give the post some credence when it was posted, but "the science" supports reopening schools.  Yet the Science Worshipers of March are ignoring science because it is politically inconvenient.  Following science (including the science of psychology and mental health) does not justify keeping schools closed.

We were also told that the purpose of all these lockdowns was to "flatten the curve".  That was accomplished long ago.  Now, the goalposts have been moved.  Now, people are saying we have to be locked down "until there's no more cases" or "until there's a vaccine".  That may not be possible.  More importantly, that wasn't the deal back then.  And we've been lied to; we've been shamed and threatened for wanting to go church, gyms, or just open businesses.  But the same leaders who shame and threaten ordinary law-abiding citizens for insisting on living their lives and maintaining their livelihoods commend large groups for protesting "racism", pandemic or no pandemic.  

This is all politically expedient hypocrisy.  It's something those pushing lockdowns and such will not admit to, but these people are not running on "science".  They're running on politics, and all of this is about Donald Trump and driving him from office.  If it weren't, the protesters for George Floyd would have been treated in the same manner as the protesters in Michigan calling for reopening.  

I have to admit I was skeptical of the George Floyd protests early on, precisely because of the pandemic.  But I will note that protesting outdoors, with social distancing and following CDC guidelines, is safer than having (especially pre-high school) children go to school or for people to go to church in close conditions.  Cardinal Dolan brought up the possibility of having mass outdoors.  Rev. MacArthur would do well to tune out the Protestant brain rot and consider that.

But, let's not put Karen's public demand for a haircut on the same level as black people protesting for their own lives and for police reform.  We have a strong segment of the population now convinced that the pandemic is a conspiracy to take away your freedom.  Now if those protestors were living in Hungary, they certainly would have a point as the pandemic has been used as an opportunity for Viktor Orbán to solidify his dictator-like hold over the country.  This is not the case in the US or most developed countries.

Black people protesting for "their own lives" (which, honestly, is melodrama, unless they're protesting against the harm to black lives criminal gangs cause) can be done on social media and Zoom.  The MSM would give spokespeople all sorts of platforms for that, platforms that would "let their voices be heard" without transmitting the virus.  (Of course, you can't loot, burn buildings, destroy monuments of all kinds, occupy police stations, invade the homes of law-abiding citizens, and cause the death of people like David Dorn (who was guarding a business) on Zoom or Facebook.)  "The Science" was suspended for the lawless activity of these people, who did what they did without regard for public health.  And the response of many public officials was to essentially suggest that, somehow, the virus isn't transmitted by protests.  

If COVID-19 is what you say it is, then here's the bottom line:  COVID-19 was a national emergency.  "Racism" was not.  Racism is it a serous problem, but was it really an emergency that justified exceptions for the level of mass activity that occurred while telling law-abiding citizens that they must stay inside?  (George Floyd's death was a tragedy that needed to be politically exploited, but that's another story.)  

It's not about "Karen" (Lori Lightweight) getting a haircut.  It's about law-abiding citizens who, unlike the rioters in the streets who are spreading COVID-19, have lost jobs and need to go back to work, or have been prevented from reopening businesses that represent the investment of their life savings.  It's about people who need minor medical procedures that can't get them.  Compliance with "science" is DEMANDED from law-abiding citizens and law-abiding citizens are THREATENED with sanctions for protesting THEIR lot.  Now they've gotten the message:  Black Lives Matter, but THEIR Lives Don't.  Think about it; the lives of people that obey the law and play by the rules' lives don't matter to many of their leaders.  They are told that they'll spread the virus in church, while persons who rioted and looted in close proximity to each other are excused (and sometimes praised) by the leaders that punish the law-abiding.

That IS what's going on.  It's NOT fair, not in the least.  What's sad is that people here on this Forum can't even admit that.  If people here can't do right by those people to make that simple admission, why should they think their leaders will?  More importantly, why should law-abiding citizens believe that they will transmit the Coronavirus when they go to church, or when they reopen their businesses, when their leaders won't admit that rioters, looters, and "peaceful protesters" were spreading the virus?  That's a question.  If people can't say that the protesters were wrong to protest as they did (and do) during a pandemic, why should people believe that they need to ditch their job and their church for the sake of public health?

The BLM protests should have happened. They NEEDED to happen, some might argue, for the long-term future of America. They should not have have happened without masks or social distancing, as some on this forum including myself pointed out and criticized at the time. At least they were outdoors.

I support churches moving outdoors with social distancing and masks, but other than all 3 happening, they should probably stay closed. In person AND indoors church services absolutely do not "need" to happen when they are so many reasonable alternatives with much lower risk to the community. I honestly can't even see the comparison between a necessary cultural movement and having church in a very specific way instead of several reasonable alternatives.

Please don't mention "trained Marxists", because the BLM movement is not heavily coordinated by the BLM organization. I myself do not like or support the organization, despite massively supporting the movement.