Prediction: The sexual harassment outrage will hurt democrats, not help them.

[BlueSwan]

The usual thing is happening. Liberals are taking something that is a very real issue - in this case sexism, rape culture and actual sexual harassment, and end up trivializing it by labelling every little joke or minor misdeed "sexual assault" or worse. The Al Franken case is a great example of this.

Guess what, most americans, and especially the white working class, are not down with that at all. They see it as hysteric. It becomes all too easy for them to label everybody taking up these issues as "feminazis", "politically correct", "elitist" or just out of touch with reality. In the process they end up supporting ACTUAL offenders like Roy Moore or Donald Trump because liberals lump them all together, not being able to distinguish between actual sexual harassment and brattish behaviour.

The result is that we end up losing as usual, not just electorally, but the actual important issue of REAL harassment. When will the more hysteric amongst us liberals learn the lesson??

[BlueSwan]

Please, do tell what you consider to be "REAL" harassment.

Roy Moore, Donald Trump, Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein, etc.

Not what we have heard about Al Franken.

Playfully grabbing someone's ass (who is not someone that you employ or hold any other type of power over): Not harassment.

Continually grabbing that person's ass after you have been told not to do it, or grabbing someone's ass you you hold some king of power over: Harassment.

Please be advised that "not" labelling something harassment, doesn't mean that said behaviour is condoned.

[BlueSwan]

Hey BlueSwan please grab a woman by the ass "playfully" next time you see one and see if she thinks It's assault.

I would never do that.

[BlueSwan]

Please, do tell what you consider to be "REAL" harassment.

Roy Moore, Donald Trump, Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein, etc.

If you would only categorize that as "harassment," I'd hate to see what you'd consider "assault."

Al Franken is accused of shoving his tongue down a woman's throat just because he wanted to. It's literally an uninvited sexual action. What the hell do you call that?

An uninvited sexual action.

[BlueSwan]

The usual thing is happening. Liberals are taking something that is a very real issue - in this case sexism, rape culture and actual sexual harassment, and end up trivializing it by labelling every little joke or minor misdeed "sexual assault" or worse. The Al Franken case is a great example of this.

Guess what, most americans, and especially the white working class, are not down with that at all. They see it as hysteric. It becomes all too easy for them to label everybody taking up these issues as "feminazis", "politically correct", "elitist" or just out of touch with reality. In the process they end up supporting ACTUAL offenders like Roy Moore or Donald Trump because liberals lump them all together, not being able to distinguish between actual sexual harassment and brattish behaviour.

The result is that we end up losing as usual, not just electorally, but the actual important issue of REAL harassment. When will the more hysteric amongst us liberals learn the lesson??

Just after my gf, sisters in law and nieces tell me they're fine with being raped for ephemeral political advantage with Trump voters. I.e. NEVER,  since that might not have been clear enough for you.

People (using the word very loosely) who think there should be a debate about what level of sexual predation and assault is acceptable are NEVER going to vote for strong female candidates. They will NEVER vote for full enforcement of civil and human rights. They will, however, be likely be easily swayed by whatever hate and nonsense the GOP is vomiting this time. (See 2016, 2004, etc.)

Taking this kind of black or white attitude to the realm of human interaction is deeply problematic. Context is important. Flirtation is grey area stuff. Failure to realize this will cost liberals elections AND it will hurt the cause of preventing actual sexual harassment/assault.

[BlueSwan]

Please, do tell what you consider to be "REAL" harassment.

Roy Moore, Donald Trump, Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein, etc.

If you would only categorize that as "harassment," I'd hate to see what you'd consider "assault."

Al Franken is accused of shoving his tongue down a woman's throat just because he wanted to. It's literally an uninvited sexual action. What the hell do you call that?

An uninvited sexual action.

You're still burying the fact that you consider what Cosby and Weinstein did to only be "harassment."

No. English is not my first language. My post was not about distinguishing between harassment and assault. It was about distinguishing about brattishness or whatever on the one side and harassment/assault on the other.

[BlueSwan]

The usual thing is happening. Liberals are taking something that is a very real issue - in this case sexism, rape culture and actual sexual harassment, and end up trivializing it by labelling every little joke or minor misdeed "sexual assault" or worse. The Al Franken case is a great example of this.

Guess what, most americans, and especially the white working class, are not down with that at all. They see it as hysteric. It becomes all too easy for them to label everybody taking up these issues as "feminazis", "politically correct", "elitist" or just out of touch with reality. In the process they end up supporting ACTUAL offenders like Roy Moore or Donald Trump because liberals lump them all together, not being able to distinguish between actual sexual harassment and brattish behaviour.

The result is that we end up losing as usual, not just electorally, but the actual important issue of REAL harassment. When will the more hysteric amongst us liberals learn the lesson??

Just after my gf, sisters in law and nieces tell me they're fine with being raped for ephemeral political advantage with Trump voters. I.e. NEVER,  since that might not have been clear enough for you.

People (using the word very loosely) who think there should be a debate about what level of sexual predation and assault is acceptable are NEVER going to vote for strong female candidates. They will NEVER vote for full enforcement of civil and human rights. They will, however, be likely be easily swayed by whatever hate and nonsense the GOP is vomiting this time. (See 2016, 2004, etc.)

Taking this kind of black or white attitude to the realm of human interaction is deeply problematic. Context is important. Flirtation is grey area stuff. Failure to realize this will cost liberals elections AND it will hurt the cause of preventing actual sexual harassment/assault.

No, it won't. Nor is it a 'grey area'.

Here is a video on consent and tea that you could benefit from:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oQbei5JGiT8

(And if you watch it and then immediately start imagining justifiable edge cases, you are a broken person who needs help.)

The video is a poor analogy. It basically suggests that one should always ask "would you like me to touch you there" before you do so. That's just not how human interaction in the sexual realm works.  I seriously doubt that anybody in this thread does so with their girlfriend/boyfriends or wifes/husbands.

[BlueSwan]

And for the record, yes, people do ask their partners if they like what they're doing. And when they ask you to stop doing something, you stop, you don't keeping doing it. You seem to be being willfully obtuse about what is wrong with what these men (and presumably some powerful women somewhere, too) have done.

I have expressly written in this thread and others that I don't condone the behaviour of Franken and that I regard the behaviours of Moore, Trump, Weinstein, etc. to be abusive.

It is just that my agenda in this thread is a different one. It is about the dangers of seeing everything in black and white, which in my view greatly hurts both democrats and the important agenda of countering rape culture, sexual harassment and sexism.

Just look at the moral outrage from yourself and others in this thread against a fellow liberal who actually cares about these issues. This is what creates the resentment towards "elitist liberals" amongst the white working class and others. If sceptism about immigration is labelled racist and brattish behaviour is labelled sexist or even abusive, then forget about ever appealing to these people. There are certainly way too many true sexists and racists out there, as we are seeing a lot of evidence of lately, but what we often risk doing is pushing more people into that column by grouping racists with sceptics and grouping sexual abusers with regular working class people.

Not that it matters, but for the record I am a lifelong feminist who has fought for women's rights and gay rights my entire adult life. I have touched exactly TWO women in a sexual way in my entire life: my wife (been with her for 16 years) and my girlfriend (4 years) in my youth. I don't approve of the way a lot of men treat women, but I insist on distinguishing between a pat on the shoulder and rape.

[BlueSwan]

Denmark must be a maaaagical place

It's pretty good.