Opinion of the DREAM act

[dead0man]

I'll go with Somewhat Favorable.

[dead0man]

Except they aren't "effectively" forced to join the military. (as if that's some horrible thing)

[dead0man]

Except they aren't "effectively" forced to join the military. (as if that's some horrible thing)

Conscription as the only route to citizenship would be a pretty horrible thing. Much worse than the status quo, in fact.

I was saying the military isn't a horrible thing.  Yes it would be bad to force captured illegals to join the military, obviously this bill is nothing like that.  Insinuating that it is like that (effectively or not) is silly, IMHO.

Except they aren't "effectively" forced to join the military. (as if that's some horrible thing)

Perhaps that wasn't the best word usage. Anyways how many illegals are going to be able to go to college for two years?

Community College is pretty freaking cheap and there are quite a few ways to get help paying for that if you don't make much money.  Millions of Americans are working there way through Community College right now just to improve their station in life (yes you can improve your position in life through hard work) and they already have their citizenship.

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Thankfully, this bill is nothing like that.

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They can.  They can join the Navy, or the Coast Guard.  Or they can go to college.  Or they can go back to their nation of origin.  Or they can keep hiding.

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Cheap education is essential?

[dead0man]

Community college is definitely not cheap if you're illegal. If this bill doesn't let them apply for state aid, it would be ridiculosly expensive for them.

cite that Community College is "ridiculously expensive"?

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cite?

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"entitled"?  really?  Nobody is "entitled" to anything. (except to not be hassled or harmed by others)

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Tell that to the millions of people doing just fine without a college degree (like me).  The meme that "everybody that can go to college, should" is and always was stupid and wrong.

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and I completely disagree.

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Yeah, I get your point and I along with most of the rest of the country disagree with you.  Change my (our) mind(s) if you can.  I like to change my mind when I find out I'm wrong about something.

I can sympathize with somebody born into an illegal situation, which is why I support the bill.

[dead0man]

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You can't really be born into an illegal situation if your born on US soil.

This isn't about those people, but for children born elsewhere and brought here by illegal parents at a young age.

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I maybe missunderstanding you here, but nations MUST be able to control their borders.

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The definition of ridiculously expensive is different for everyone and thus isn't something you can "cite". For sub-minimum wage immigrant workers community college tuition, around here anyway, would be a rather large chunk of change when you factor in other living expenses.
[/quote]Many states currently give illegal aliens the "in-state" tuition rates.  The DREAM bill itself (which again, I support) provides student loans and allows them to do the "work-study" thing.

[dead0man]

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Your not misunderstanding me. I can accept lax controls and even screening or searches for purposes of domestic security I suppose. Governments, however, have no business telling private people where they can or cannot go and who they can or cannot contract with.

All countries control (to some extent or another) who comes into their country.  I totally agree with you about letting them leave, a nation shouldn't be able to stop it's citizens from leaving.  But entering?, nations MUST be able to stop non-citizens from entering (and they all do).

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I took that into account when I made the statement I made.
[/quote]Then it's in no way "ridiculously expensive".

[dead0man]

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This doesn't make it correct or even good policy.

If it's wrong or bad policy you'd think some nation would have tried it at some point in time or another....why do you think they haven't?

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I disagree. Its an intolerable disgrace to liberty and just hurts every person involved in the process of border restriction. The potential negative effects are weak compared with the benefits. [/quote]Potential negative effects?  Say Sweden adopted your policy of totally open borders, you don't see any potential negative effects that would be worse than any of your perceived benefits?  I can think of a few for you can't come up with any.

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Many libertarians do hold that view, but so do many socialists.  It's no more a libertarian position than gun rights or decriminalization of weed are.

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It is if you put it in the broader context of the cost of living here which is quite expensive even in the lowest income brackets. I am, however, generalizing illegals as being low-skilled sub-minimum wage workers which is far from the universal truth among the few cases I'm privileged to know in real life.
[/quote]Sure, but why are they going to college?  I doubt it would be to "expand their horizons" with some worthless liberal arts degree.  No, it would be to gain valuable skills (one would at least hope) and that would mean more money coming in in the future.  That's how college loans work for non illegals.  You don't pay upfront because you have no money because you have no skills.  After college you have the skills to make money, you then make money, you then pay off the loan.  Hopefully at least.  Some people don't get smart degrees.  Some people just aren't smart enough or lack the drive for whatever reason.  But that's the point of the loans and the work study programs....so people that can't pay for college can still go.  Which is why I've been saying "it's too expensive so they are 'effectively' being conscripted" isn't a good argument.

[dead0man]

No, eh.