Argentina General Discussion: Shock Therapy

[wnwnwn]

No you did all you did was go on one of your typical rants about how far right figures like the West which isn’t true heck Bolsonaro doesn’t even like the West he was just a Trump lover. I was talking in the context of far right figures around the globe that are actually taking over and Milei so far fp is the only one that stands out as different

You deflect from the point because you know you are wrong. Pick ANY leaderships from Cold War or Post Cold War and the Right will tend to side with the West much more, simply because the West historically supports the Right outside their borders much more as well. That is not an opinion, but a pure fact.

Bolsonaro being too incompetent or evil to maintain that because Western Liberals got Woke about Gays and the Environment and act like suddenly they aren’t supposed to represent whiteness (and seem to believe what they really represent is Liberal Democracy lol) does not change what is an internal local reality.

Like, Bolsonaro isn’t really THAT different from your average Latin American Right-wing leader regardless if they’re from cold war (ex: Pinochet) or post cold war (ex: Uribe)

Anyway, Milei’s flop inauguration only had 8 global leaders total going to celebrate it:

- Armenia
- Chile
- Ecuador
- Spain
- Hungary
- Paraguay
- Ukraine
- Uruguay

Basically, all the right-wing governments in South America (you can maybe include Boric in there lolz) + Spain for obvious cultural ties not related to ideology + Armenia whose interest is a mystery to me + Hungary and Ukraine for new geopolitical club ally, at least in how those two perceive Milei.

First time a Brazilian president doesn’t go to the Argentinian president inauguration in 40 years, since democracy returned to Argentina. Which is quite significant.

Bolsonaro was invited and went to the inauguration as Milei’s friend though.

Bukele is the most popular president in the region. His absense means a small failure.
Out of that, everything seemed allright. Fernandez seemed sympathetic to Milei.

[Red Velvet]

Javier Milei, which during the presidential campaign had called China a “Communist Country” and said that he wanted no ties with the “Beijing Dictatorship”, now takes a step back and is ALREADY asking for a financial help from them.

Electoral Fraud!

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

Armenia whose interest is a mystery to me

Probably because of Argentine-Armenian billionaire tycoon Eduardo Eurnekian who has huge investments in both countries and has fostered relations between the two for decades. Milei actually worked for Eurnekian at one point, though the latter basically anti-endorsed Milei when he ran for President.

I just find it odd that this guy is the first far right populist type that wants to kiss up to the US. Most of these types tend to say like US when Trump was in charge but Joaquin Phoenix here wants good relations with Biden too

Yeah, it's also kind of odd he reversed planned membership in BRICS and is pro-Ukraine.

Why? Center-right and right politics in Latin America have always been pro-western world. Latin America has to deal with this eternal identity crisis between being part of the west or our own thing and that discussion usually correlates to the right-left axis, especially in the most "European" regions like the Southern Cone.

And I wouldn't define Milei as a populist. Not at all.

Milei is absolutely a populist. Just swap out “oligarquía” for “casta”.

Yes, populism refers to a political style and it's one that Milei embodies well enough (after all, he got the sort of electorate he did in the first round while running in the country which made of Populism™ its dominant political movement). Although I get the sense that his presidency will be less populist than his campaign.

I find a lot of Latinos use the term "populist" to refer exclusively to economic leftists like Chávez or Morales. But yes, by the Anglophone definition Milei is definitely a populist. He followed Rothbard's right wing populist strategy to a tee:

And so the proper strategy for the right wing must be what we can call “right-wing populism”: exciting, dynamic, tough, and confrontational, rousing and inspiring not only the exploited masses, but the often-shell-shocked right-wing intellectual cadre as well. And in this era where the intellectual and media elites are all establishment liberal-conservatives, all in a deep sense one variety or another of social democrat, all bitterly hostile to a genuine Right, we need a dynamic, charismatic leader who has the ability to short-circuit the media elites, and to reach and rouse the masses directly. We need a leadership that can reach the masses and cut through the crippling and distorting hermeneutical fog spread by the media elites.

Javier Milei, which during the presidential campaign had called China a “Communist Country” and said that he wanted no ties with the “Beijing Dictatorship”, now takes a step back and is ALREADY asking for a financial help from them.

Electoral Fraud!

Milei's top priority is the economy so he's clearly going to make concessions on any other issue that gets in the way of his economic agenda. Also his foreign policy is probably his weakest field so I completely support him making concessions there.

[Aurelius2]

Looks like I named the thread well:

https://twitter.com/DanielDiMartino/status/1734755187661668593

[Reactionary Libertarian]

Looks like I named the thread well:

https://twitter.com/DanielDiMartino/status/1734755187661668593

Chances of this going through?

[Peeperkorn]

Looks like I named the thread well:

https://twitter.com/DanielDiMartino/status/1734755187661668593

Chances of this going through?

It will be hard and there's going to be a lot of protests but probably the best moment to do it with the landslide victory still fresh in everybody's minds.

[oldtimer]

Looks like I named the thread well:

https://twitter.com/DanielDiMartino/status/1734755187661668593

Beyond the generic IMF type austerity, he is focusing on trade.

Also he realises that there will be a negative impact, so the child benefit and food aid expansion is surprisingly realistic from him.

[lfromnj]

https://derechadiario.com.ar/argentina/historica-sesion-en-el-senado-se-conformo-un-bloque-anti-kirchnerista-con-super-mayoria-y-un-libertario-quedo-como-presidente-provisional#google_vignette
google translated

ARGENTINA Historic session in the Senate: An "anti-Kirchnerist" bloc was formed with a supermajority and a libertarian remained as Provisional PresidentPublished 53 mins ago in December 13, 2023By Argentinian Editorial Team
For the first time in decades, Kirchner's Peronism will be a minority in the Senate, after La Libertad Avanza, Juntos por el Cambio and several provincial Peronist senators will form a unified front.



As anticipated by La Derecha Diario, the senators of La Libertad Avanza, the PRO, the UCR, and the provincial Peronism joined together to form a provisional bloc of 39 votes, which has a wide advantage over the Union for the Homeland bloc, which is left with only 33 senators.

This new bloc put its majority to the test today by electing, by 39 votes in favor, the libertarian senator Bartolomé Abdala, as Provisional President of the Senate. Carolina Losada was then sworn in as first vice president and Alejandra Vigo, Schiaretti's wife, as second vice president.

[wnwnwn]

Looks like I named the thread well:

https://twitter.com/DanielDiMartino/status/1734755187661668593

Beyond the generic IMF type austerity, he is focusing on trade.

Also he realises that there will be a negative impact, so the child benefit and food aid expansion is surprisingly realistic from him.

Well, he talked about 'hunger' in his campaing, but a lot of his supporters did memes and videos agaisnt food stamp recievers. The plan itself isn't the worst for the context, but it doesn't appeal much to his base. That will have its effects.

In the other hand, would somebody want a 'Peru thread'?

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

https://derechadiario.com.ar/argentina/historica-sesion-en-el-senado-se-conformo-un-bloque-anti-kirchnerista-con-super-mayoria-y-un-libertario-quedo-como-presidente-provisional#google_vignette
google translated

ARGENTINA Historic session in the Senate: An "anti-Kirchnerist" bloc was formed with a supermajority and a libertarian remained as Provisional PresidentPublished 53 mins ago in December 13, 2023By Argentinian Editorial Team
For the first time in decades, Kirchner's Peronism will be a minority in the Senate, after La Libertad Avanza, Juntos por el Cambio and several provincial Peronist senators will form a unified front.



As anticipated by La Derecha Diario, the senators of La Libertad Avanza, the PRO, the UCR, and the provincial Peronism joined together to form a provisional bloc of 39 votes, which has a wide advantage over the Union for the Homeland bloc, which is left with only 33 senators.

This new bloc put its majority to the test today by electing, by 39 votes in favor, the libertarian senator Bartolomé Abdala, as Provisional President of the Senate. Carolina Losada was then sworn in as first vice president and Alejandra Vigo, Schiaretti's wife, as second vice president.

A big win for Victoria Villarruel preventing an attempt by the Kirchernists to take control of the Senate. Initially the preferred Provisional President was Francisco Paoltroni of Formosa but reportedly Governor Insfrán was spooked by the possibility that Paoltroni would use his position of prominence to challenge his position so he used his influence with the other governors to veto him. Abdala went from provincial Peronism to PRO to LLA so he's more agreeable to the swing votes in the Senate anyway.

Looks like I named the thread well:

https://twitter.com/DanielDiMartino/status/1734755187661668593

Beyond the generic IMF type austerity, he is focusing on trade.

Also he realises that there will be a negative impact, so the child benefit and food aid expansion is surprisingly realistic from him.

Well, he talked about 'hunger' in his campaing, but a lot of his supporters did memes and videos agaisnt food stamp recievers. The plan itself isn't the worst for the context, but it doesn't appeal much to his base. That will have its effects.

He's always specifically said that he'd (temporarily) increase direct aid to kids and the poor to compensate for the loss of subsidies. The bougies on /r/argentina might not like it but he completely undercut the Kirchnerist line about how his poor supporters in provinces like Salta would starve if he took power. Also if he succeeds in removing financial intermediaries like the social movements from the welfare system then he'll cripple a major pillar of Kirchnerist organization while increasing the amount of money in the pockets of recipients in the process

In the other hand, would somebody want a 'Peru thread'?

Sure

[AustralianSwingVoter]

In the other hand, would somebody want a 'Peru thread'?

Absolutely! Very timely with Fujimori just being released.

[lfromnj]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-12-14/milei-moves-to-limit-protests-against-argentina-austerity-plan
Milei gearing up to crush protests that block the roads.

[GP270watch]

 This guy is going to be an unmitigated disaster.

[lfromnj]

This guy is going to be an unmitigated disaster.

Implying Argentina isn't one already.

[GP270watch]

This guy is going to be an unmitigated disaster.

Implying Argentina isn't one already.

 It can always get worse!

 Why don't people understand this?

 Argentina choose a guy who is trying to dollarize Argentina at time where there is euro-dollar shortage. This is as foolish as can be and this will 100% guaranteed be a disaster.

[MaxQue]

This guy is going to be an unmitigated disaster.

Implying Argentina isn't one already.

Well, he is clearly gearing up to just kill protestors, so, yes, that will be worse.

[Red Velvet]

Saw this on the godforsaken Argentinian subreddit and I must admit it made me chuckle (click on the link to read the whole tweet):

https://twitter.com/JoshRainerGold/status/1735886234948415544

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Look, the Argentine electorate made the clear choice to have the country destroyed in a new and exciting way, rather than having it destroyed in the old and boring way and to an extent that choice must be respected. I wonder whether he leaves office in a helicopter? Odds?

[Hindsight was 2020]

Look, the Argentine electorate made the clear choice to have the country destroyed in a new and exciting way, rather than having it destroyed in the old and boring way and to an extent that choice must be respected. I wonder whether he leaves office in a helicopter? Odds?

Do you mean in the Nixon way or military throws him out of one way? Because that impacts the odds

[kaoras]

Saw this on the godforsaken Argentinian subreddit and I must admit it made me chuckle (click on the link to read the whole tweet):

https://twitter.com/JoshRainerGold/status/1735886234948415544

And the gringo still doesn't get the last bit. Well, I'm sure in Argentina is different but on Chile the only people that know about their ancestry beyond their grandparents are exactly the kind of people that you are thinking about. And I admit, I instantly dislike anyone that knows theirs, and plenty of other people feel the same

[Red Velvet]

Saw this on the godforsaken Argentinian subreddit and I must admit it made me chuckle (click on the link to read the whole tweet):

https://twitter.com/JoshRainerGold/status/1735886234948415544

And the gringo still doesn't get the last bit. Well, I'm sure in Argentina is different but on Chile the only people that know about their ancestry beyond their grandparents are exactly the kind of people that you are thinking about. And I admit, I instantly dislike anyone that knows theirs, and plenty of other people feel the same

Which should be a shame in a continent so mixed and filled with influences from everywhere because it’s evidence on how every non-European history tended to be erased so that people don’t know their history and therefore adapt and assimilate to the only recorded one.

If many in Latin American politics still fall for automatic alignment with Westerners and their false-liberal narratives, it’s necessarily because of cultural association and heritage making them believe they’re part of the same club even though they’re not. Those are concepts that inherently go through the same old “white intellectual superiority” myths that never existed, only were created to validate oppression and exploitation.

I reject your idea that people shouldn’t know their ancestry, if anything it’s the exact opposite and MORE of the people who were never given the same privilege that White people always had that should have access to the same knowledge they were alienated from because of violent history.

Otherwise we keep living in this eternal comfort lie of “multicultural continent that embraces everyone” when that’s not really the truth and disparaging inequalities alongside political behaviors do correlate with how only one side historically got to tell their history.

And it’s not like they shouldn’t as they’re part of the nations too, the problem is exactly in the others having their history repressed, which is what should be mitigated and corrected.

If more people truly knew their nation origins, besides their own too, they would realize we’re all closer as nations to the Global South, not just on an economic level. And that includes Argentina/Uruguay as well.

[kaoras]

Hermanito solo te pregunté la hora. Anyway, my point was that people who have detailed knowledge of their ancestry are usually pretentious rich people and you are not exactly disproving my point

[wnwnwn]

Hermanito solo te pregunté la hora. Anyway, my point was that people who have detailed knowledge of their ancestry are usually pretentious rich people and you are not exactly disproving my point

X2

Well, in LATAM if an american didn't get his point.

[Red Velvet]

Hermanito solo te pregunté la hora. Anyway, my point was that people who have detailed knowledge of their ancestry are usually pretentious rich people and you are not exactly disproving my point

These days, I don’t think you necessarily have to be rich at all. Internet facilitates access to lots of old records with no cost for instance and there are also those DNA ancestry tests that are somewhat affordable by Middle class types.

What you do often need to have is for those records to exist though. Which is directly tied more to racial elements than wealth elements like you are saying now. Indigenous tribes undergone genocide or were assimilated into White societies by adopting European names so there isn’t appropriate record of that ancestry for example, for those who happen to have it. Whenever there is something on the record, it’s necessarily more tied to White people.

Same thing African immigrants who were brought into the Americas and don’t have a reference to go with in the long-term sense. Which is why many of these groups nowadays turn to ancestry tests as only available option they have in order to track their origins.

Most of African immigration came from Western Coast of Africa but not necessarily all. And in Brazil, I always just assumed the African ancestry came almost all from Bantu people because of Angola but these recent ancestry researches have proved that’s not the case.

But while a good chunk of Subsaharan African ancestry here is indeed from Bantu groups, there’s very significant numbers from Northern regions like Mine Coast and even Senegambia. That’s the kind of “erased history” that wasn’t really as recorded but can be recovered anyway, as an example.

[wnwnwn]

Guys, if you want to talk sh**t about LaTaM issues, just troll one of my Peru threads.

Light skin mestizo peruvians who only know the andean towns where their grandparents lived don't care about where the white part of their DNA come from (they suppose Spain usually, but that's it).
Doing research on those issues is not common.