COVID-19 Megathread 6: Return of the Omicron

[compucomp]

And the "Masks don't work" and "COVID is not airborne" people are not even the same people you're debating on this issue--these are the people who claim vaccines are not necessary. So you're further positioning yourself with the antivax crowd.

No, I'm referring to the fact that "Masks don't work" and "COVID is not airborne" were common proclamations from public health officials early in the pandemic. They turned out to be completely untrue and embarrassingly recanted, particularly in the "Masks don't work" case.

That case is actually quite instructive, as it was a complete lie from the start that was intended to manipulate public opinion to prevent mask hoarding. Now, in a similar attempt to manipulate public opinion this time to boost vaccine uptake, apparently the public health authorities (and you) have decided to mislead about its efficacy and portray it as a virus-repelling force field that would let people do anything safely regardless of the exposure. This has proven to be quite a poor message in the face of the Delta variant and I'm guessing the CDC is now trying to find a way to gracefully recant this guidance. But if they had just told the whole truth from the start and not tried to twist it, they wouldn't be in this situation.

And I still refuse to budge an inch from my position that mask mandates are a zero-cost and effective mitigation measure that is only irrationally opposed due to feelings and Trumpist propaganda.

[Frodo]

The GOP is a death cult:

As coronavirus surges, GOP lawmakers are moving to limit public health powers

Let's suppose a white supremacist terrorist organization gets access to a lab with smallpox samples, and infect primarily black and Latino neighborhoods that later spreads to the rest of the country.

How exactly are we supposed to respond to that with these restrictions (proposed or already made into law) in place?  

[Hammy]

And the "Masks don't work" and "COVID is not airborne" people are not even the same people you're debating on this issue--these are the people who claim vaccines are not necessary. So you're further positioning yourself with the antivax crowd.

No, I'm referring to the fact that "Masks don't work" and "COVID is not airborne" were common proclamations from public health officials early in the pandemic. They turned out to be completely untrue and embarrassingly recanted, particularly in the "Masks don't work" case.

That case is actually quite instructive, as it was a complete lie from the start that was intended to manipulate public opinion to prevent mask hoarding. Now, in a similar attempt to manipulate public opinion this time to boost vaccine uptake, apparently the public health authorities (and you) have decided to mislead about its efficacy and portray it as a virus-repelling force field that would let people do anything safely regardless of the exposure. This has proven to be quite a poor message in the face of the Delta variant and I'm guessing the CDC is now trying to find a way to gracefully recant this guidance. But if they had just told the whole truth from the start and not tried to twist it, they wouldn't be in this situation.

And I still refuse to budge an inch from my position that mask mandates are a zero-cost and effective mitigation measure that is only irrationally opposed due to feelings and Trumpist propaganda.

To the bold, those literally were Trumpist propaganda, hence what I said. They wanted to boost the 'everything's fine, this isn't a dangerous virus' talk. Telling people it's airborne and that masks were required would counter the false anti-science reality they sought to create. Those are not the same people saying mask mandates are not necessary--the ones who said that are the ones currently saying vaccines are also unnecessary, something the "return to mandate" mentality validates.

And I'm not going to budge an inch either on my stance, as it is backed by science, and not the misrepresentation of a single study that even the director of it said not to treat as relevant.

The GOP is a death cult:

As coronavirus surges, GOP lawmakers are moving to limit public health powers

Yet, after 9/11 killed 3000, these same people DEMANDED you give up your rights and privacy.

[Fmr. Gov. NickG]

The number of vaccinated people dying each day in the US now from covid is way, way, fewer than the number of people who typically die each day from the flu (like orders of magnitude fewer).  If you’re vaccinated and weren’t masking and avoiding social gatherings prior to 2020 out of fear of the flu and other viruses, why would you feel the need to now?

[compucomp]

And the "Masks don't work" and "COVID is not airborne" people are not even the same people you're debating on this issue--these are the people who claim vaccines are not necessary. So you're further positioning yourself with the antivax crowd.

No, I'm referring to the fact that "Masks don't work" and "COVID is not airborne" were common proclamations from public health officials early in the pandemic. They turned out to be completely untrue and embarrassingly recanted, particularly in the "Masks don't work" case.

That case is actually quite instructive, as it was a complete lie from the start that was intended to manipulate public opinion to prevent mask hoarding. Now, in a similar attempt to manipulate public opinion this time to boost vaccine uptake, apparently the public health authorities (and you) have decided to mislead about its efficacy and portray it as a virus-repelling force field that would let people do anything safely regardless of the exposure. This has proven to be quite a poor message in the face of the Delta variant and I'm guessing the CDC is now trying to find a way to gracefully recant this guidance. But if they had just told the whole truth from the start and not tried to twist it, they wouldn't be in this situation.

And I still refuse to budge an inch from my position that mask mandates are a zero-cost and effective mitigation measure that is only irrationally opposed due to feelings and Trumpist propaganda.

To the bold, those literally were Trumpist propaganda, hence what I said. They wanted to boost the 'everything's fine, this isn't a dangerous virus' talk. Telling people it's airborne and that masks were required would counter the false anti-science reality they sought to create. Those are not the same people saying mask mandates are not necessary--the ones who said that are the ones currently saying vaccines are also unnecessary, something the "return to mandate" mentality validates.

And I'm not going to budge an inch either on my stance, as it is backed by science, and not the misrepresentation of a single study that even the director of it said not to treat as relevant.

No, that's not Trumpist propaganda, that was public health messaging (from Jerome Adams, Fauci, Redfield, etc) in March 2020 that was false and designed to manipulate public opinion and which backfired horribly, straining public health credibility and providing a potent weapon for the Trumpists. Now the public health agencies are making the same mistake by misleading about the vaccine and you're joining right in with them.

You're full of it when you claim that you're backed by science, the science clearly says that masks work to slow the spread of respiratory diseases including COVID-19, and it's still spreading out of control in the community so we need something to slow it down. If we went purely by the science we would have indoor mask mandates in perpetuity.

[Hammy]

And the "Masks don't work" and "COVID is not airborne" people are not even the same people you're debating on this issue--these are the people who claim vaccines are not necessary. So you're further positioning yourself with the antivax crowd.

No, I'm referring to the fact that "Masks don't work" and "COVID is not airborne" were common proclamations from public health officials early in the pandemic. They turned out to be completely untrue and embarrassingly recanted, particularly in the "Masks don't work" case.

That case is actually quite instructive, as it was a complete lie from the start that was intended to manipulate public opinion to prevent mask hoarding. Now, in a similar attempt to manipulate public opinion this time to boost vaccine uptake, apparently the public health authorities (and you) have decided to mislead about its efficacy and portray it as a virus-repelling force field that would let people do anything safely regardless of the exposure. This has proven to be quite a poor message in the face of the Delta variant and I'm guessing the CDC is now trying to find a way to gracefully recant this guidance. But if they had just told the whole truth from the start and not tried to twist it, they wouldn't be in this situation.

And I still refuse to budge an inch from my position that mask mandates are a zero-cost and effective mitigation measure that is only irrationally opposed due to feelings and Trumpist propaganda.

To the bold, those literally were Trumpist propaganda, hence what I said. They wanted to boost the 'everything's fine, this isn't a dangerous virus' talk. Telling people it's airborne and that masks were required would counter the false anti-science reality they sought to create. Those are not the same people saying mask mandates are not necessary--the ones who said that are the ones currently saying vaccines are also unnecessary, something the "return to mandate" mentality validates.

And I'm not going to budge an inch either on my stance, as it is backed by science, and not the misrepresentation of a single study that even the director of it said not to treat as relevant.

No, that's not Trumpist propaganda, that was public health messaging (from Jerome Adams, Fauci, Redfield, etc) in March 2020 that was false and designed to manipulate public opinion and which backfired horribly, straining public health credibility and providing a potent weapon for the Trumpists. Now the public health agencies are making the same mistake by misleading about the vaccine and you're joining right in with them.

You're full of it when you claim that you're backed by science, the science clearly says that masks work to slow the spread of respiratory diseases including COVID-19, and it's still spreading out of control in the community so we need something to slow it down. If we went purely by the science we would have indoor mask mandates in perpetuity.

Vaccine mandates are the solution. Exclude from society those who refuse.

Fauci had to tow the line and not say things that contradicted Trump too much otherwise he'd be fired. And if you're going to claim perpetual mask mandates are the only things that follow science, we may as well just put the entire population permanently under house arrest because that's where that line of thinking leads.

[Horus]

If we went purely by the science we would have indoor mask mandates in perpetuity.

This is just as deranged of a position as being anti vax. Wow. Can we please stop pretending there aren't people out there who want masks forever? MattRose might be trolling but it's clear that masks made a certain, extremely socially awkward segment of the population feel better in public and now they're scared to give them up. Unreal.

[emailking]

If we went purely by the science we would have indoor mask mandates in perpetuity.

This is just as deranged of a position as being anti vax. Wow. Can we please stop pretending there aren't people out there who want masks forever? MattRose might be trolling but it's clear that masks made a certain, extremely socially awkward segment of the population feel better in public and now they're scared to give them up. Unreal.

Maybe but this seems to be conjecture.

[Horus]

If we went purely by the science we would have indoor mask mandates in perpetuity.

This is just as deranged of a position as being anti vax. Wow. Can we please stop pretending there aren't people out there who want masks forever? MattRose might be trolling but it's clear that masks made a certain, extremely socially awkward segment of the population feel better in public and now they're scared to give them up. Unreal.

Maybe but this seems to be conjecture.

Maybe, but as someone who is reasonably socially awkward I can see the appeal. I'm not sure why else people would be so dead set on keeping the mandates when masks are virtually pointless for vaccinated individuals... They aren't comfortable and many begin to itch after awhile.

[Hammy]

If we went purely by the science we would have indoor mask mandates in perpetuity.

This is just as deranged of a position as being anti vax. Wow. Can we please stop pretending there aren't people out there who want masks forever? MattRose might be trolling but it's clear that masks made a certain, extremely socially awkward segment of the population feel better in public and now they're scared to give them up. Unreal.

I can personally attest this is somewhat accurate (though it goes well beyond a mere social awkwardness in my case.) While I am continuing to mask for the time being, I'm also the sort of person that due to intense anxiety and panic issues--it only takes one negative experience to give me an irrational fear of a situation. There are roads I've avoided for the last 5-6 years even, over a single near miss on each of those roads, and instead opt to take slightly longer, lower traffic routes. I've avoided interstates since 2014 for the same reason.

But people who are trying to mandate masks for the vaccinated at this point are showing a complete disregard for rational thought, and using my driving example, would be the same as closing down half a city because of a few accidents rather than being satisfied with those who are nervous simply opting to avoid them.

Also, compucomp's position is antivax, no two ways about it.

[Kamala's side hoe]

And the "Masks don't work" and "COVID is not airborne" people are not even the same people you're debating on this issue--these are the people who claim vaccines are not necessary. So you're further positioning yourself with the antivax crowd.

There's a huge difference between being realistic about vaccines' (slightly lower) chances of protecting against the Delta strain- which would still only cause mild COVID-19 in the small percentage of vaccinated people who do get infected- and subscribing to the belief that Fauci is teaming up with Bill Gates to implant 5G microchips to track when 300 million people go to the bathroom. (Obviously I don't know what the actual conspiracy theories entail.)

You can simultaneously be pro-masking and also encourage everyone who isn't already vaccinated to do so.

[Hammy]

And the "Masks don't work" and "COVID is not airborne" people are not even the same people you're debating on this issue--these are the people who claim vaccines are not necessary. So you're further positioning yourself with the antivax crowd.

There's a huge difference between being realistic about vaccines' (slightly lower) chances of protecting against the Delta strain- which would still only cause mild COVID-19 in the small percentage of vaccinated people who do get infected- and subscribing to the belief that Fauci is teaming up with Bill Gates to implant 5G microchips to track when 300 million people go to the bathroom. (Obviously I don't know what the actual conspiracy theories entail.)

You can simultaneously be pro-masking and also encourage everyone who isn't already vaccinated to do so.

I am pro-mask, in the sense that they are effective (though I always have uncertainty if I'm personally wearing it correctly) and feel there should not be a stigma for those who choose to wear them, for whatever reason they may. And I am staunchly in favor of requiring masks for the unvaccinated, as they're the ones keeping this going. But people who are acting like the vaccines are no longer effective based on a single study (or this particular poster at least) and that those who are already vaccinated should be mandated is not being pro-mask, it's being anti-science--and I don't feel it will be helpful in getting people vaccinated.

As an aside, I tried to look up what the whole 5G conspiracy theory was some time ago, and it made increasingly little sense the more I tried to figure out what their theory was supposed to be.

[Frodo]

Anti-vaxxers are now calling for Nuremburg-like trials for health care workers trying to fight COVID:

Thousands of anti-vaccine protesters gather in London
Mayor Sadiq Khan condemns ‘utterly appalling’ comments by conspiracy theorist at Trafalgar Square

[Dr. MB]

Outside in Portland pretty much nobody was wearing a mask anywhere (but I didn't go inside). I went inside Michael's in Beaverton and they had a masks required sign but I think they just never updated their policy since the Oregon mask mandate was only repealed a few weeks ago. Obviously they weren't enforcing it since some of the employees including the woman who looked like the manager were maskless.

[jamestroll]

https://twitter.com/AmidPandemic/status/1419559568095449088

I am glad people are finally standing up for themselves in Australia! End the lockdowns world wide now!!!!!!!

[pbrower2a]

The number of vaccinated people dying each day in the US now from covid is way, way, fewer than the number of people who typically die each day from the flu (like orders of magnitude fewer).  If you’re vaccinated and weren’t masking and avoiding social gatherings prior to 2020 out of fear of the flu and other viruses, why would you feel the need to now?

Inoculations work, but only if people receive them. Masks work, but only if people wear them. Social distancing works, but only if people go along.

COVID-19 is to the flu what AIDS is to genital herpes.

[Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers]

As long as there is homeless population there is gonna be Cc ovos, it's akin to Hepititis or TB, it's not the Bird flu, and contacted they personal contact, and it's spreaded thru personal contact with them on buses, trains and stores, due to the fact it's the flu and flu doesn't kill you, I haven't had one episode since I got the vaccine, but I still have common cold symptoms

[Bandit3 the Worker]

The number of vaccinated people dying each day in the US now from covid is way, way, fewer than the number of people who typically die each day from the flu (like orders of magnitude fewer).

It's probably about 3 or 4. Back in the spring of 2020, there were as many as 3,000 Americans dying per day.

[compucomp]

If we went purely by the science we would have indoor mask mandates in perpetuity.

This is just as deranged of a position as being anti vax. Wow. Can we please stop pretending there aren't people out there who want masks forever? MattRose might be trolling but it's clear that masks made a certain, extremely socially awkward segment of the population feel better in public and now they're scared to give them up. Unreal.

I can personally attest this is somewhat accurate (though it goes well beyond a mere social awkwardness in my case.) While I am continuing to mask for the time being, I'm also the sort of person that due to intense anxiety and panic issues--it only takes one negative experience to give me an irrational fear of a situation. There are roads I've avoided for the last 5-6 years even, over a single near miss on each of those roads, and instead opt to take slightly longer, lower traffic routes. I've avoided interstates since 2014 for the same reason.

But people who are trying to mandate masks for the vaccinated at this point are showing a complete disregard for rational thought, and using my driving example, would be the same as closing down half a city because of a few accidents rather than being satisfied with those who are nervous simply opting to avoid them.

Also, compucomp's position is antivax, no two ways about it.

I'm so anti-vax, I spent days in April staring at multiple tracker sites to find the earliest available vaccine appointment in three states, and am now considering getting another shot and wondering if there's anything to prevent me from just walking into CVS and getting one even without official sanction from public health agencies. If the truth, that given the current known information a reasonable person could conclude that the vaccine is not sufficiently protective to be safe, is damaging to public health messaging then the messaging needs to be changed, and it is changing right now.

Vaccine mandates are great in theory and I would be in favor of them, but in this country enacting a real one would amount to civil war, while if mask mandates were enacted people would grumble and complain for a bit but ultimately put them back on. They're still zero cost! Why oppose a zero cost mitigation measure that works? We mandate people put clothes on outdoors, and clothes cost money. We mandate people put on seat belts in cars, and those cost money and are uncomfortable. It's still irrational to oppose mask mandates and it is incredibly disappointing that many Democrats have fully embraced the Trumpist position on this issue. Seems even Trump haters have fallen victim to Trumpist brainwashing.

[It’s so Joever]

https://twitter.com/AmidPandemic/status/1419559568095449088

I am glad people are finally standing up for themselves in Australia! End the lockdowns world wide now!!!!!!!

I don’t think they are vaccinated in Australia.

[Fmr. Gov. NickG]

Vaccine mandates are great in theory and I would be in favor of them, but in this country enacting a real one would amount to civil war.

People in the South said this about forcing desegregation and civil rights in the 50s and 60s.  That was a much more consequential federal disruption to people's way of life.  And obviously there was a lot of foot-dragging, and scattered violence.  But the 2nd civil war never happened.

They're still zero cost! Why oppose a zero cost mitigation measure that works? We mandate people put clothes on outdoors, and clothes cost money. We mandate people put on seat belts in cars, and those cost money and are uncomfortable. It's still irrational to oppose mask mandates and it is incredibly disappointing that many Democrats have fully embraced the Trumpist position on this issue. Seems even Trump haters have fallen victim to Trumpist brainwashing.

The notion that mask mandates are zero cost is just not the lived experience of most people who have to wear then.  The are pretty uncomfortable and make a lot of daily activities less enjoyable.  And they are MUCH more intrusive than seat belts.  Certainly wearing a mask is lower cost than actually getting covid.  But they are an inferior option to getting vaccinated on every dimension. Vaccines ARE zero cost after the first day or so of side effects, and they are much more effective.

[Skunk]

They're still zero cost! Why oppose a zero cost mitigation measure that works? We mandate people put clothes on outdoors, and clothes cost money. We mandate people put on seat belts in cars, and those cost money and are uncomfortable. It's still irrational to oppose mask mandates and it is incredibly disappointing that many Democrats have fully embraced the Trumpist position on this issue. Seems even Trump haters have fallen victim to Trumpist brainwashing.

You do realize when we're talking about the cost effectiveness of masks that we aren't just talking about the literal price of them, right? They aren't comfortable to wear for extended periods of time, especially in summer heat with how muggy the air gets, and not being able to fully read people's facial expressions makes regular day to day interactions with people stiff and awkward.

After over a year of having no other option, of course people are going to be excited about having the possibility of taking them off. This is why many of us, and not just "Trumpists," are telling you why extending mask mandates would be an awful idea- the idea of not wearing a mask is a vaccine incentive to many people. That's why so many people waited for mask mandates to be lifted to get their vaccines in the first place. Most places have no real way of enforcing mask mandates so if you enacted one nowadays, the only people who would be wearing them are people like you who are vaccinated but paranoid out of their minds from doomscrolling on social media and not the unvaccinated people who would actually benefit from wearing one.

[Calthrina950]

They're still zero cost! Why oppose a zero cost mitigation measure that works? We mandate people put clothes on outdoors, and clothes cost money. We mandate people put on seat belts in cars, and those cost money and are uncomfortable. It's still irrational to oppose mask mandates and it is incredibly disappointing that many Democrats have fully embraced the Trumpist position on this issue. Seems even Trump haters have fallen victim to Trumpist brainwashing.

You do realize when we're talking about the cost effectiveness of masks that we aren't just talking about the literal price of them, right? They aren't comfortable to wear for extended periods of time, especially in summer heat with how muggy the air gets, and not being able to fully read people's facial expressions makes regular day to day interactions with people stiff and awkward.

After over a year of having no other option, of course people are going to be excited about having the possibility of taking them off. This is why many of us, and not just "Trumpists," are telling you why extending mask mandates would be an awful idea- the idea of not wearing a mask is a vaccine incentive to many people. That's why so many people waited for mask mandates to be lifted to get their vaccines in the first place. Most places have no real way of enforcing mask mandates so if you enacted one nowadays, the only people who would be wearing them are people like you who are vaccinated but paranoid out of their minds from doomscrolling on social media and not the unvaccinated people who would actually benefit from wearing one.

This is the reality even now. I suspect that the vast majority of those still wearing masks at this point are people who are fully vaccinated, but who are paranoid and don't feel comfortable with not wearing them. Most of those who are unvaccinated, and have no intentions of getting the vaccine, are not wearing masks anymore. Thus, a renewed mask mandate would be impractical.

[YE]

https://twitter.com/erictopol/status/1416443085798526976?s=21

https://twitter.com/erictopol/status/1417562950471090179?s=21

Vaccines do work very well against containing the virus. Israel numbers seem weirdly low in all studies presumably due to the regional variations of vaccination levels so I don’t think it’s particularly representative. Given that vaccinated areas have far fewer cases than non-vaccinated ones, the spread of the coronavirus is more or less halted by the vaccine. Comparing this to “masks don’t work” because the Delta Variant is burning through unvaccinated folks is nonsensical. Furthermore, opposing mask mandates is not Trumpist because outside of select relatively unvaccinated areas (and even then I’m ambivalent on mandates at this point because I’m not sure people will listen), the coronavirus doesn’t jeopardize our healthcare system. What would be Trumpist is opposing mask mandates back when there was no vaccine.

[compucomp]

They're still zero cost! Why oppose a zero cost mitigation measure that works? We mandate people put clothes on outdoors, and clothes cost money. We mandate people put on seat belts in cars, and those cost money and are uncomfortable. It's still irrational to oppose mask mandates and it is incredibly disappointing that many Democrats have fully embraced the Trumpist position on this issue. Seems even Trump haters have fallen victim to Trumpist brainwashing.

You do realize when we're talking about the cost effectiveness of masks that we aren't just talking about the literal price of them, right? They aren't comfortable to wear for extended periods of time, especially in summer heat with how muggy the air gets, and not being able to fully read people's facial expressions makes regular day to day interactions with people stiff and awkward.

After over a year of having no other option, of course people are going to be excited about having the possibility of taking them off. This is why many of us, and not just "Trumpists," are telling you why extending mask mandates would be an awful idea- the idea of not wearing a mask is a vaccine incentive to many people. That's why so many people waited for mask mandates to be lifted to get their vaccines in the first place. Most places have no real way of enforcing mask mandates so if you enacted one nowadays, the only people who would be wearing them are people like you who are vaccinated but paranoid out of their minds from doomscrolling on social media and not the unvaccinated people who would actually benefit from wearing one.

This is the reality even now. I suspect that the vast majority of those still wearing masks at this point are people who are fully vaccinated, but who are paranoid and don't feel comfortable with not wearing them. Most of those who are unvaccinated, and have no intentions of getting the vaccine, are not wearing masks anymore. Thus, a renewed mask mandate would be impractical.

You say a mask mandate would be impractical to enforce, which is a reasonable argument, but then claim that a vaccine mandate is the way? Suppose today one is stopped at the door of a store by an employee with a surgical mask in hand and told that one must wear a mask to enter. What happens? Most will grumble, put on the mask, and go about their business, some will get angry, yell loudly, and leave, and a few would get their guns and shoot the employee. Now imagine the same situation with the employee asking for proof of vaccination? Just about everyone will be angry and have to leave since the vaccine card was not designed for portability and few carry it with them everywhere, many will yell loudly, and more than a nominal number will get their guns and fire. If new mask mandates are impractical then vaccine mandates would be just about impossible.